# Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343 "2009-05-22T22:19:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/161 "2009-05-24T20:07:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re the one who brought it into the conversation, Sparky. Presumably, because you thought it a valid and useful consideration. Do we misunderstand the subtlety? Huh? I asked some very specific questions. Might you be able to offer some answers? Or might that take you away from your self-appointed task of making sure these boards have ample failed attempts at cute and funny? So, any opinion on the specific questions I asked? As in answers? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/162 "2009-05-24T20:10:48Z")
Simply putting a question mark at the end of an inanity does not raise it to significance. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/163 "2009-05-24T20:11:11Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Hell if I know. It’s hard to define, and that’s obviously part of the problem. But here’s my way of thinking: > > Suppose a loved one is incarcerated / detained by the U.S. government / military. Now suppose that while they’re incarcerated, they’re subjected to waterboarding, stress positions, loud music played non-stop, sleep deprivation, or cold temperatures. > > Which of those things would you be OK with, and which might you object to on behalf of your relative? That’s a good way to look at it. Of course, assuming the belief that my relative had information that could save lives, I would be okay with all of these, to varying degrees, waterboarding being at the end of the list. But that’s why I posted my questions. I wouldn’t, for instance, be okay with fingernails being ripped out or teeth being drilled a la Marathon Man. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/164 "2009-05-24T20:12:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Uh, yeah. I and the rest of the world kinda work under that assumption. And yet you’re basing your position on waterboarding maybe not being torture on the reaction of a man who was subjected to a very mild form, and nevertheless he called it, unequivocally, torture. Why is it that you won’t believe everyone who’s done it or had it done to them and called it torture? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/165 "2009-05-24T20:14:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Simply putting a question mark at the end of an inanity does not raise it to significance. Do you not think the questions I asked are of interest to the debate on waterboarding? If so, which one(s)? Why. Do you not have an answer for any of what I’ve asked? Why don’t you try? I assure you that the SDMB will survive the few minutes it would take you to actually contribute to a thread for a change. Come on, there’s a first time for everything. You might even like it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/166 "2009-05-24T20:18:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > And yet you’re basing your position on waterboarding maybe not being torture on the reaction of a man who was subjected to a very mild form, and nevertheless he called it, unequivocally, torture. Why is it that you won’t believe everyone who’s done it or had it done to them and called it torture? What criteria are they using? The dilemma as I see it is laid out in my post. If you care to contribute, I’d appreciate it. Simply waving your hand and insisting it’s torture is not contributing. I started out thinking it was torture, but am now leaning the other way. If you’d rather not provide the help I’ve asked for, that’s fine, too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/167 "2009-05-24T20:26:54Z")
As soon as I require a critique from you as to my posting style and/or personality, I will advise. I am suspicious, point of fact. You appear to be making an effort to shoehorn some doubt into the problem, in an effort to create some “wiggle room”. As an excercise in semantics or deconstruction, it may have some merit. As an argument, it has one deficiency, and that is that its substance exists only within your perferred definitions. Waterboarding is torture. Period. Full stop. In other breaking news, the Earth is mostly spheroid. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/168 "2009-05-24T20:33:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Waterboarding is torture. Period. Full stop. In other breaking news, the Earth is mostly spheroid. I’m asking how you come to that conclusion? What are the criteria? At what point does an “enhanced interrogation technique” become “torture”? If we were to evaluate a new technique, what criteria do you suggest we apply to determine whether or not its torture? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/169 "2009-05-24T21:11:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I saw this thread when it opened and just scanned it. I haven’t read it, but I do have a couple of questions. Some of which are specific to waterboarding, but I’m more interested in the others. So, > > 1. what is torture? Not, “what techniques qualify as torture”, but what defines it. The best dictionary definition fro [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) seems to be: > > So, we know that pain need be involved. I think we’d all agree on that. And that drilling into someone’s teeth or ripping their fingernails out would easily qualify. But where is the line between extreme discomfort, or just annoying discomfort applied over time and outright, excruciating pain? > > Also, are non-physical acts “torture”, as well? If I play one Abba song over and over and over again in order to annoy someone sufficiently to give up info, is that torture? It’s torture if it’s more than what is necessary for their normal interrogation and confinement. > [@](#): > > 1. What is the difference between “torture” and “enhanced interrogation techniques”? Let’s say there’s an act that you, personally, falls into the latter category. what is it. What makes it an enhanced interrogation technique and not torture? There are no enhanced interrogation techniques. It is a euphemism for torturing people. > [@](#): > > Now, let’s assume that there exists an enhanced interrogation technique you are okay with. Let’s also assume that it comes with a commensurate increase in effectiveness, as small as it may be. Isn’t safe to say that this technique will deliver discomfort to the suspect? If so, how much discomfort can one apply until it moves into the torture category? Applying more discomfort than necessary for normal confinement and interrogation is where the line for torture begins. > [@](#): > > 1. Leaving aside whether waterboarding is torture or not for now, and assuming it falls short of that and is “merely” an enhanced interrogation technique, it would still deliver discomfort, correct? I ask this because of the weight Mancow’s conclusion seems to be given. What criteria is he using? We see him go from absolute panic to being completely lucid and free of pain in the matter of a minute or two. The fact that an enhanced interrogation technique was a greatly unpleasant experience doesn’t surprise me in the least—such a technique would have to be unpleasant. Even if it weren’t torture, it still works less well than non-torture techniques. > [@](#): > > 1. I’ve been on the fence as to whether waterboarding is torture or not, leaning toward “it is”. This stunt actually pushed me to start leaning the other way. It seems to simply create panic in the brain for a few seconds, and then it’s over. Also, if people can go through it dozens of times, with no scars or long-term effects, doesn’t that argue for the “not-torture” conclusion? The fact that it leaves no scars is irrelevant. Would a high tech pain ray be torture? Of course it would. > [@](#): > > Let’s move to Orwell’s Room 101. The protaganist is terrified of rats. In order to get him to straighten out, they place a large cage over his head with hungry rats in it, with him protected by a divider that keeps the rats on their side of the cage. The rats never get to him, but the mere thought of it, and the slightest hint of the divider being removed is enough for him to conform. You want to base your assessment of its efficacy on fiction? Terrifying someone isn’t allowed either. You aren’t allowed to dry fire a pistol to do a mock execution, so convincing someone’s brain that they’re drowning or going to have rats eat their eyes shouldn’t be allowed either. I also love how you utterly missed the point of 1984. 😃 > [@](#): > > So, is this torture? In the extreme case of the ticking nuclear bomb in NYC, would you advocate such a technique? First off the ticking time bomb is a myth. What if a super villian made you chose between your children? Second off other methods are more reliable. Both in absolute success and number of false positives. Torture can work, but other methods work faster and more often. So even if it isn’t morally repugnant it’s not worth using. Never mind the fact that it’s a slap in the faces of the founders. That it makes us into the monolithic big brother from 1984. That it makes our enemies feel like their hatred of us is justified. > [@](#): > > I seem to being going back and forth on this one. So, how would you—on both sides—address the specific questions I’ve asked? > > Thanks. No problemo. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/170 "2009-05-24T21:15:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > There is no ticking bomb scenario. That never happens. And even if it did, torturing a suspect isn’t going to help. Under torture, he finally blurts out: “The bomb is in locker number 342 at Port Authority!” You stop torturing him while agents race madly to the West Side. The locker is empty. Lather, rinse, repeat, until the actual bomb explodes. Torture doesn’t produce reliable information. It’s useless. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/171 "2009-05-24T21:16:00Z")
It was torture when it was done by others to Americans. The question then becomes “what changes when Americans do it to others so that it may no longer be considered torture?” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/172 "2009-05-24T21:18:41Z")
The ticking bomb scenario has never happened and never will but I propose a more likely scenario: if sacrificing three young virgins to the gods ensures rainfall and a good harvest would you sacrifice the three virgins? Or would you rather sacrifice thousands of people to die of hunger? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/173 "2009-05-24T22:19:38Z")
Tell you what, though, when the news gets to the co-eds of Baylor University and Southern Methodist, gonna be a hot time in the ol’ town, tonight! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/174 "2009-05-24T22:29:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m asking how you come to that conclusion? What are the criteria? At what point does an “enhanced interrogation technique” become “torture”? If we were to evaluate a new technique, what criteria do you suggest we apply to determine whether or not its torture? How about the Geneva Conventions? You know, that treaty that’s legally binding on the US? Also, there is no such thing as an ‘enhanced interrogation technique’. That term was invented solely to mask the use of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/175 "2009-05-24T22:58:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, is this torture? In the extreme case of the ticking nuclear bomb in NYC, would you advocate such a technique? I don’t believe that’s a realistic scenario, but I’ll address it as a hypothetical. The legal system makes allowances for killing in self-defense, or in the defense of others. The standards, as I understand it, are high. They should be. Torture should be held to the same standard. And remember, we’re talking about the threat posed by someone locked securely in a military detention facility, not spraying bullets around a school cafeteria. If there really is a bomb, and you really prevent it from going off, you should still face a judge and jury. It’s up to you to convince them that your actions were necessary and sufficient to save lives. But like a murder trial, “the other guy might have had a gun” ain’t gonna cut it. (Which is why the ticking time bomb scenario is so unrealistic. Has there ever been a case where a criminal (or terrorist) was in custody, yet was still an imminent threat and unstoppable by any other means?) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/176 "2009-05-24T23:03:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m asking how you come to that conclusion? What are the criteria? At what point does an “enhanced interrogation technique” become “torture”? If we were to evaluate a new technique, what criteria do you suggest we apply to determine whether or not its torture? Ooh! Ooh! I know! Mr. Kotter, pick meeeee! Take a right-wing jackass who says it isn’t torture, perform the “enhanced interrogation technique” on him for six seconds, and then ask him. I bet that’ll do it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/177 "2009-05-24T23:31:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s torture if it’s more than what is necessary for their normal interrogation and confinement. Okay. The obvious question then becomes, what constitutes normal: is it a slightly warm room with a bare 150 watt bulb? More? How much more? Does effectiveness play any role in what constitutes normal? Or is it just asking the questions two or three times? > [@Lobohan](#): > > There are no enhanced interrogation techniques. It is a euphemism for torturing people. Again, is it your position that anything that goes beyond simply asking the questions is torture? Or do you make an allowance for anything beyond that? Do you make room for what we’re trying to find out, e.g., do we treat the same interrogation techniques on known terrorists as we do someone who robs a house or bank? > [@Lobohan](#): > > Applying more discomfort than necessary for normal confinement and interrogation is where the line for torture begins. Now this brings the idea of effectiveness into the discussion, as I mentioned earlier. What constitutes “necessary”. Certainly it’s not “until we get the answers we want”. But in this answer you seem to indicate some room between simply asking the questions one or twice and torture. That’s what interests me. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Even if it weren’t torture, it still works less well than non-torture techniques. That may be. But that’s a different debate. Different than the aspect of it I’m trying to explore. The fact that it leaves no scars is irrelevant. Would a high tech pain ray be torture? Of course it would. You make a good distinction. But my point was more that it causes no harm. There’s not even pain. Just fear, momentary panic. > [@Lobohan](#): > > You want to base your assessment of its efficacy on fiction? Terrifying someone isn’t allowed either. You aren’t allowed to dry fire a pistol to do a mock execution, so convincing someone’s brain that they’re drowning or going to have rats eat their eyes shouldn’t be allowed either. I also love how you utterly missed the point of 1984. 😃 But isn’t fear part of most interrogations. Isn’t that the basis of the most basic plea deals? If you don’t help us with info you might end up in the general population of Rikers. If you do give us some valuable info, we’ll put you in a better place, or in isolation for your own protection, etc. They paint a picture of something clearly horrific, and give someone a way out. Isn’t the equation here the same? > [@Lobohan](#): > > First off the ticking time bomb is a myth. What if a super villian made you chose between your children? Second off other methods are more reliable. Both in absolute success and number of false positives. Torture can work, but other methods work faster and more often. So even if it isn’t morally repugnant it’s not worth using. Never mind the fact that it’s a slap in the faces of the founders. That it makes us into the monolithic big brother from 1984. That it makes our enemies feel like their hatred of us is justified. All good points. And I think the effectiveness argument is pretty persuasive. But I’m leaving that aside for now. > [@Lobohan](#): > > No problemo. Thanks for your serious and thoughtful answers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/178 "2009-05-24T23:32:21Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It was torture when it was done by others to Americans. The question then becomes “what changes when Americans do it to others so that it may no longer be considered torture?” Nothing. But that doesn’t answer the questions I have. What is it, specifically, that makes X torture? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/179 "2009-05-24T23:34:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tell you what, though, when the news gets to the co-eds of Baylor University and Southern Methodist, gonna be a hot time in the ol’ town, tonight! Thank you for your contribution of usual merit. And in case it escapes you, it’s not a compliment. Godspeed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343/180 "2009-05-24T23:40:25Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t believe that’s a realistic scenario, but I’ll address it as a hypothetical. > > The legal system makes allowances for killing in self-defense, or in the defense of others. The standards, as I understand it, are high. They should be. Torture should be held to the same standard. And remember, we’re talking about the threat posed by someone locked securely in a military detention facility, not spraying bullets around a school cafeteria. If there really is a bomb, and you really prevent it from going off, you should still face a judge and jury. It’s up to you to convince them that your actions were necessary and sufficient to save lives. But like a murder trial, “the other guy might have had a gun” ain’t gonna cut it. I think this makes sense. But just so I understand, someone can torture—without restriction—IF it later proves to have been necessary and successful. Is that right? I think that goes further than what I’d be comfortable with. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > (Which is why the ticking time bomb scenario is so unrealistic. Has there ever been a case where a criminal (or terrorist) was in custody, yet was still an imminent threat and unstoppable by any other means?) Tons. Don’t you ever watch\* “24”\*?:dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-radio-hosts-gets-waterboarded/497343.md?page=10)