# Conservatives deserting the Republican Party **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2018, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168 "2018-12-15T09:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/41 "2018-12-16T21:35:25Z")
Both parties are right-winged to me… Never fight fascism with fascist-lite… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/42 "2018-12-16T21:55:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > [snip] > > But the plutocratic agenda is still _what the GOP does._ I don’t have any survey data, so maybe I am wrong, but this is what it looks like to me: The operating core of the GOP isn’t the white nationalists. The party is largely made up of businessmen who want to think they’re overtaxed and over-regulated, and it’s been that way for generations. They may be commonly racist because they live in a racist society, but they’re motivated by the dream of living without “government on their backs.” > > They can attach themselves to the military-industrial complex, they can attach themselves to the “religious right,” they can attach themselves to loudmouth self-described patriots, and now they attach themselves to explicit white nationalists; all of these are groups that some part of the anti-tax businessman voter can sympathize with, but they are incorporated to win votes. The neo-nazis are gearing up to serve the same function as the pro-lifers did twenty years ago. But the party exists, at core, to break the hold of taxes and regulations, _as they keep insisting._ And if they hate democracy, well, yeah, they hate democracy when it raises their taxes, and they love it when they can manipulate it to lower them. > > This is what Steve Bannon seemed not to understand. There is no patriotic, nationalistic, nor pro-white core to the faction in control of the party; and they are still in control of the party. They’re not going to raise the wages of their “white brothers” nor their “fellow Americans.” It is the party of the selfish and kind of anti-social. The nationalists, racists, and xenophobes are largely just useful idiots for the coalition like the pro-lifers and and anti-gay voters. Economic policy is still set by the anti-tax crowd. It’s the same old song. What’s new & dangerous about it is that neo-nazis will kill for their masters more than Jesus people will. > > That’s what I think. But if you have data proving me wrong, OK. What you wrote is not wrong; it’s pretty much spot on IMO. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/43 "2018-12-16T22:20:01Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > That may be because they at least have an actual ideological ethos (_pace,_ Walter Sobchak), as opposed to just a visceral reactive impulse to the changes in society and a craving for power for the sake of “punishing” those who were party to that change. > > But, he is telling that illiberal base that those measures ARE “populist”, and they are buying it… because to them, anything that sounds like you will “be tough” and “not care what they say” and “pwn the Libtards” means you are standing up for them. The Illiberal White Nationalists have come to accept that no matter who’s in charge they’re getting screwed, but they might as well stand tough and whenever possible “punish” the other side. What’s ironic is that they are flat out wrong if they think they would be getting screwed no matter who’s in charge. Things like an increase in the minimum wage, improved access to good health care, affordable higher education, etc. would all benefit them. Yet they continue to oppose those policies because they don’t want to share the benefits of those policies with anyone not in their group. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/44 "2018-12-16T22:30:36Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I disagree, the republican party is becoming more and more true to their roots and their voters. > > For the last few decades, the rich and powerful have played on the tribalistic agenda of the GOP base to get elected, and once elected they push for plutocratic economic agendas (privatize SS & medicare, abolish ACA, cut taxes on the rich, cut regulations, abolish unions, etc). > > Only now the GOP is becoming more and more honest about the true agenda of their voters. The base of the GOP is patriarchal christian white nationalists who don’t respect liberal democracy. Yes. Check out this graph: [https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1072555694686158852](https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1072555694686158852) Evangelical Christians are the base, not SWMs without a college education. True, nonevangelical white males without a college education preferred the GOP to the Democrats during the 2018 midterms by a 53 to 44% margin. But among white male evangelicals, GOP vote share was 78% whatever your level of education. Among white female evangelicals it was 71-73%. That’s the base. Not white male. Not whites without a college education. Evangelicals. > [@septimus](#): > > I phrased the OP title poorly. It’s the _intellectual framework_ of the GOP that is dissolving; the leaders and philosophers are deserting. Both then-living GOP Presidents — Bush and Bush — opposed Trump. The intelligent pro-America opinion-makers (Will and Boot, but of course not jackals like Hannity and Limbaugh) are fleeing the sinking ship. > > What’s left is flocks of voters trying to hold on to a crumbling core, hallucinating that the abyss engulfing them is a magic highway to Make America Great Again. Without leaders that want to serve America, these voters are at the mercy of grifters and flim-flam artists. Sad. To quote the internet, “Classic trilemma: You cannot be honest, intelligent and Republican/modern conservative at the same time; chose two of these.” For a pre-Trump view on modern conservative grifting see Perlstein (2012) in the Baffler: [The Long Con](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con). ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/45 "2018-12-17T03:00:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But keep in mind the entire south had to be forced to act civilized at gunpoint at multiple times in US history, and the culture there hasn’t changed. The culture in the South has changed alot. I grew up here, and have lived here my entire life. It’s very different than when I was growing up. People don’t believe it. But the races here actually get along much better than in the past. You can go anywhere in the south (almost any town, large or small) and you will see inter-racial couples. It’s not dominant, but you see them, and they are rarely harassed (I haven’t seen harassment in decades). You are likely to see neighborhoods and churches and schools that are integrated. Things are not like what you see in movies about the jim crow days. Also, many areas of the south have been settled by people from the Northeast and Midwest. So, it’s not a uniform culture by any means. You still can eat southern food, and people still hunt & fish and go to church. But there are other outlets, too, in the larger towns. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/46 "2018-12-17T03:25:42Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > The one group of conservatives that by and large seems to be sticking with their never-Trumpism are the neocons. So the neocons are now the last standing of sensible right? I must have missed the memo … when did they join? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/47 "2018-12-17T03:43:43Z")
Does this mean that John “Shit for Brains” Bolton won’t stumble us into a war with Iran, Belgium, or Upper Volta? Gumdrops! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/48 "2018-12-17T05:34:33Z")
I seem to recall reading an article from a conservative commentator who was shocked, shocked, to discover that all oh is traditional ideological views (tax cuts, support for the military, anti-abortionist) were actually just cover for the general strategy of keeping whites on top. Can’t think of the name. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/49 "2018-12-17T12:21:03Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > So the neocons are now the last standing of sensible right? > I must have missed the memo … when did they join? All I was saying was that more of them (as a %) have remained in the Never-Trump camp. I’m thinking of guys like Max Boot, John Podhoretz, Bill Kristol, David Frum, and a few others. There also seems to have been more introspection on their part. I’m not absolving the neocons of their sins. But compared to other conservative groups, the neocons seem to have actual principles and willingness to stand against the Trump Mob. And that’s what the pro-Trump world is now. It’s just a mob, and all the negatives that entails. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/50 "2018-12-17T12:22:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I seem to recall reading an article from a conservative commentator who was shocked, shocked, to discover that all oh is traditional ideological views (tax cuts, support for the military, anti-abortionist) were actually just cover for the general strategy of keeping whites on top. > > Can’t think of the name. That might have been Max Boot. I think he wrote something like that. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/51 "2018-12-17T12:29:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does this mean that John “Shit for Brains” Bolton won’t stumble us into a war with Iran, Belgium, or **Upper Volta**? Gumdrops! Nitpick: Burkina Faso. (Apologies — it’s a Doper affliction, as you well know…) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/52 "2018-12-17T12:48:45Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The republicans got 50 million votes for the house in the 2018 midterm. The republicans have done nothing but tried to cover up Trump’s crimes. > > The vast, vast majority of republican voters are fine with this behavior. Or at minimum, they would be if Republicans would stop being so blatant about their oligarchal and bigoted attitudes. Most of the Republicans who are leaving the party still believe fundamentally in inequality, they just have a problem with the indecency and naked, unapologetic corruption of their ilk. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/53 "2018-12-18T06:21:50Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > That might have been Max Boot. I think he wrote something like that. That’s it! [Here’s an excerpt from an interview he gave](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/10/11/corrosion-of-conservatism-republican-gop-max-boot), promoting his book, “The Corrosion of Conservatism”: > [@](#): > > I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn’t have been shocked, I should have seen this all along — but I was just so dismayed to see the kind of message that Donald Trump won on, which was completely antithetical to the brand of conservatism that I championed which I associate more with people like Ronald Reagan or George Will. Kind of a much more optimistic, open and inclusive brand of conservatism that doesn’t stigmatize minorities, that focuses on American global leadership, on free trade, on limited government at home. That’s the kind of conservatism that I signed up for, but that’s not the kind of conservatism that Donald Trump espouses. I mean he is someone who uses bigotry and prejudice, caters to racism and sexism and xenophobia, divides America and spreads conspiracy theories. It was truly a soul-crushing event for me to see somebody like that take over the Republican Party, and in fact, the conservative movement. And that’s why I exited the Republican Party and I’m not even sure I want to call myself a conservative anymore, because I don’t know what Conservative means anymore other than ‘Trump toady.’ " ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/54 "2018-12-18T08:41:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s it! > > [Here’s an excerpt from an interview he gave](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/10/11/corrosion-of-conservatism-republican-gop-max-boot), promoting his book, “The Corrosion of Conservatism”: > > > [@](#): > > > > the brand of conservatism that I championed which I associate more with people like Ronald Reagan or George Will. Kind of a much more optimistic, open and inclusive brand of conservatism that doesn’t stigmatize minorities He just can’t stop lying, can he? It’s that, or he doesn’t regard gay people as… well… _people_, because if they’re a _people_ they’re damn sure a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/55 "2018-12-18T15:30:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s it! > > [Here’s an excerpt from an interview he gave](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/10/11/corrosion-of-conservatism-republican-gop-max-boot), promoting his book, “The Corrosion of Conservatism”: “I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn’t have been shocked, I **should have seen this all along** …” Should have seen it all along? After a generation of Gingrich. Limbaugh, Coulter and Palin? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/56 "2018-12-18T18:00:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > “I was fairly deep within the conservative bubble working for what I thought was the good of America, and I was shocked — and perhaps I shouldn’t have been shocked, I **should have seen this all along** …” > > Should have seen it all along? After a generation of Gingrich. Limbaugh, Coulter and Palin? :smack: Hilarious. He’s like those scientists in a Michael Crichton novel…“We were just trying to clone dinosaurs – how would we know they’d start eating the tourists?!?” :smack::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/57 "2018-12-18T20:51:07Z")
A good piece from _The Atlantic_ on how the contemporary GOP became so relentlessly corrupt: [How Did the Republican Party Get So Corrupt? - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/how-did-republican-party-get-so-corrupt/578095/) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/58 "2018-12-18T21:26:51Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > He just can’t stop lying, can he? > > It’s that, or he doesn’t regard gay people as… well… _people_, because if they’re a _people_ they’re damn sure a minority. Yes, Republicans in 1980 were not very friendly to gay people. But then, neither were Democrats. There is little doubt that Republicans are different now than they were 30-40 years ago, and in universally worse ways. Society was not at all accepting of gay people in 1980, and that’s an evil we’ve come a long way fixing. But as compared to the rest of society, conservatism in 1980 wasn’t this… mean, for want of a better way of putting it. Politicians have always been mean from time to time, but meanness and cruelty now seems to be the main purpose of conservatism. This is not, incidentally, just an American thing. Conservatives in Canada are becoming weirdly, inexplicably mean in a way they just weren’t in the past. The conservatives of Canada’s past in the 1970s and 1980s were conservative but they seemed to want to do things that would be good for the country. They had big ideas and thought strategically and for the common good. Today’s version don’t seem to have big ideas; beyond the standard mindless “Cut taxes cut regulation” stuff it’s just about being mean to someone and trying to hustle and insult their way to the next political win. I used to call myself a conservative, many years ago; today I’m nowhere near conservative, and it really doesn’t have a lot to do with ideas. I remain firmly in support of free trade, free enterprise, and minimizing government interference to only what is necessary and that the market can’t take care of. Those things don’t seem to be at all important to conservative political parties, though. They just want to scream and insult and divide and hurt people, and I cannot oppose that shit strongly enough. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/59 "2018-12-18T21:57:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I used to call myself a conservative, many years ago; today I’m nowhere near conservative, and it really doesn’t have a lot to do with ideas. I remain firmly in support of free trade, free enterprise, and minimizing government interference to only what is necessary and that the market can’t take care of. Those things don’t seem to be at all important to conservative political parties, though. They just want to scream and insult and divide and hurt people, and I cannot oppose that shit strongly enough. As an American ultra-liberal (centrist by European and democratic Asian standards) I sign off on free trade and free enterprise, but think that governmental intervention should be judged by cost/benefit considerations. That said, we are both neo-liberals [by this guy’s definition](https://twitter.com/ne0liberal). That sort of neoliberalism covers the gamut from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman to Robert Reich, as well as 99% of the Democratic Party. It excludes the modern GOP, though not the party of Nixon or Eisenhower. There’s a grand conceptual coalition outside of the crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168/60 "2018-12-18T22:24:04Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > As an American ultra-liberal (centrist by European and democratic Asian standards) I sign off on free trade and free enterprise, but think that governmental intervention should be judged by cost/benefit considerations. That said, we are both neo-liberals [by this guy’s definition](https://twitter.com/ne0liberal). That sort of neoliberalism covers the gamut from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman to Robert Reich, as well as 99% of the Democratic Party. It excludes the modern GOP, though not the party of Nixon or Eisenhower. > > There’s a grand conceptual coalition outside of the crazy. I don’t like “neoliberal” because it’s become a snarl term used by the left and the right, and prefer something more along the lines of [just liberal, as in the liberal consensus,](http://www.csuchico.edu/~gwright/1945intro.htm) which broadly dominated American politics until the Civil Rights Movement caused the Republicans to go bugfuck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-deserting-the-republican-party/826168.md?page=4)