# Conservatives: Do you believe in social progress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687 "2018-12-25T16:49:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/181 "2019-01-18T19:18:55Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Which word are you having trouble with? Who? They? Are? I can’t help unless I know where you are getting stuck. > > Maybe one day you’ll be discriminated against and then you’ll get it. Until then there’s probably no way to get through. You don’t know any facts about me or what kind of situations I have put myself in. Doesn’t matter because it is irrelevant. You or me feeling sad about being discriminated against is no excuse to use force. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/182 "2019-01-18T19:21:46Z")
You do you man, you do you ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/183 "2019-01-18T19:38:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No you don’t understand discrimination at all. You speak the word as if a wedding vowel and should leave it in your back pages. > > Do you walk into a store and stand confused about who works there? No? You discriminate. Good job. You really can’t get the difference between the cognitive function of discrimination and blanket discrimination against an entire class of people? [ol] [li]That guy looks dangerous. I’ll avoid him.[/li][li]All blacks are dangerous. I’ll avoid them.[/li][/ol] Any 2nd grader can explain why #1 is normal and #2 is reprehensible. Did you leave school before then? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/184 "2019-01-18T19:42:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That is why liberals hate Trumpists so much. They hate the lower classes. You continue to amaze and delight with your dizzying psychic ability! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/185 "2019-01-18T19:54:26Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > If someone with a public business discriminated against me by denying me service because of who I am then that is certainly grounds for a lawsuit. As a liberal believer in civil society this is something that is very clear. I think it’s important that everyone has access to public accommodations regardless of who they are or who they love. Segregation is bad, as we’ve seen many times in human history. > > Before you say that “but they would have made them any other cake so it wasn’t because of who they were” I would submit that they then were discriminating against the fiance because of who the fiance is. There’s no way to get away from the fact that they were told a publicly available service was not available to them because of who they are. If you don’t think that’s lawsuit worthy then I don’t understand what you want America to be. Ok… question then. Pretty much everyone around here cheered and snarked when that restaurant in Virginia refused to serve Sarah Huckabee Sanders because of her employment with the Trump administration. How is that fundamentally different? She’s who she is- a hypocritical asshole, and that’s what they had issue with. How would we feel if she had sued the restaurant and won, for the same reason you cite? That’s the thing- it doesn’t and shouldn’t work both ways, except in the cases where there’s a specific legally-defined protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/186 "2019-01-18T20:04:24Z")
I don’t recall anyone being beaten and dragged behind a truck until death because they were a “hypocritical asshole”, however that has happened to someone simple because they were gay. One of these kids is not like the other… I guess I think that homosexuality should be a protected class, but I understand that is not the case country wide. I always thought that politics was about figuring out how to make this country a better place for everybody, so I don’t simply limit myself to the way things currently are but think about how they should be. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/187 "2019-01-18T20:09:38Z")
> [@bump](#): > > How is that fundamentally different? She’s who she is- a hypocritical asshole That’s a matter of choice, not inborn identity. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/188 "2019-01-18T20:58:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I always thought that politics was about figuring out how to make this country a better place for everybody, so I don’t simply limit myself to the way things currently are but think about how they should be. That’s actually a VERY telling statement- a lot of conservatives don’t think like that. Their contention is that the role of government is to fulfill a certain limited set of functions for the governed- things like defense, a court system, a postal system, etc… as defined in the Constitution and from Western tradition (i.e. mostly English, French, Roman and Greek). Anything outside that, is considered outside the role of government, and is strenuously resisted. That’s, IMO, a lot of the resistance to any kind of healthcare for all type scheme- it’s seen as something outside the role of the government. It’s also why conservatives are so bullish on defense spending- it’s seen as one of the few absolute core functions of a government, so they’re willing to spend on it. Of course, there’s been a lot of barnacle-like accretion of other nonsense over the years, like the notion that the government mostly sucks at doing everything and that the private sector can always do it cheaper and faster\*. But fundamentally, conservatives don’t look at the government or politics as a vehicle for effecting social change, or improving anyone’s lot. Which again, just makes them people see things differently, not automatically assholes. \*Which is often nominally true, except that the caveats are sometimes horrendous- horrible working conditions, low pay, all sorts of contract lawyering to weasel out of doing stuff, etc… all in the name of making a buck. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s a matter of choice, not inborn identity. I agree about it being inborn identity, but I don’t think it matters in this case- why would a business owner be able to say “I’m not going to serve asshole Republicans” and have that fly, versus saying “I’m not going to serve Episcopalians” and have that not fly? Both are choices. It seems to me that the best option is to allow it, and let the public opprobrium (or applause) take care of things. Better that than a government mandate that everyone HAS to serve everyone, even if it’s their private business. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/189 "2019-01-18T21:03:20Z")
If the point of a society is not to help each other and work towards the betterment of the society as a whole, then what is the point of society? To just step on each other trying to accumulate wealth and power? Yeah I guess public opprobrium worked to get rid of segregation and Jim Crowe. We certainly didn’t need any sort of civil rights legislation to fix that, just the tut-tutting of concerned citizens. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/190 "2019-01-18T21:20:14Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You do you man, you do you I try. Liberals won’t allow that. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/191 "2019-01-18T21:22:10Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > You really can’t get the difference between the cognitive function of discrimination and blanket discrimination against an entire class of people? > > [ol] > [li]That guy looks dangerous. I’ll avoid him.[/li][li]All blacks are dangerous. I’ll avoid them.[/li][/ol] > Any 2nd grader can explain why #1 is normal and #2 is reprehensible. Did you leave school before then? How many people discriminate against all blacks? Virtually zero. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/192 "2019-01-18T21:27:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I try. Liberals won’t allow that. You are not forced to live in this country, you are free to leave, so to act like you are being held against your will and forced to live in a way you do not want to is disingenuous. Or you can try to convince the majority of your fellow citizens to change the country to fit your liking. Like I said, you do you. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/193 "2019-01-18T21:28:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I don’t recall anyone being beaten and dragged behind a truck until death because they were a “hypocritical asshole”, however that has happened to someone simple because they were gay. > > One of these kids is not like the other… > > I guess I think that homosexuality should be a protected class, but I understand that is not the case country wide. I always thought that politics was about figuring out how to make this country a better place for everybody, so I don’t simply limit myself to the way things currently are but think about how they should be. Politics is concerned about the use of force in society. All else are stories for schoolchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/194 "2019-01-18T21:29:14Z")
Same to you pal. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/195 "2019-01-18T21:29:54Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You are not forced to live in this country, you are free to leave, so to act like you are being held against your will and forced to live in a way you do not want to is disingenuous. > > Or you can try to convince the majority of your fellow citizens to change the country to fit your liking. > > Like I said, you do you. I must evacuate the country I was born in to escape being hounded by schoolmarms? Seems like the schoolmarms should chill and let me be where I be. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/196 "2019-01-18T21:30:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I must evacuate the country I was born in to escape being hounded by schoolmarms? Seems like the schoolmarms should chill and let me be where I be. No, you are free to pursue the life that you want, but you as a single individual person, are not free to force your will upon the rest of the citizens in this country. We have a process by which to enact political change. If you do not like democratic civilization, then I got bad news for you buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/197 "2019-01-18T21:38:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How many people discriminate against all blacks? Virtually zero. It’s a broadly drawn example for the purposes of illustration, not a statement of fact. And you avoided answering the question, so I’ll repeat it: Do you get the difference between the cognitive function of discrimination and blanket discrimination against an entire class of people? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/198 "2019-01-18T21:47:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I try. Liberals won’t allow that. It must be truly dreadful to live with such incredible fear and hatred inside you. Best wishes and love. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/199 "2019-01-19T04:17:16Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > No, you are free to pursue the life that you want, but you as a single individual person, are not free to force your will upon the rest of the citizens in this country. We have a process by which to enact political change. If you do not like democratic civilization, then I got bad news for you buddy. What’s that? You are all going to force your will upon me? I don’t wish to force me will upon anyone. I wish to demolish the means by which others force their will on me. > [@Akaj](#): > > It’s a broadly drawn example for the purposes of illustration, not a statement of fact. > > And you avoided answering the question, so I’ll repeat it: Do you get the difference between the cognitive function of discrimination and blanket discrimination against an entire class of people? Blanket discrimination is not a cognitive function? I think you mean to be precise in your language but are failing to do so. If blanket discrimination against an entire class doesn’t actually exist in practice, why make laws against it? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/200 "2019-01-19T04:20:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Best wishes and love. Isn’t that what they wrote on Little Boy and Fat Man? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687.md?page=11)