# Conservatives: Do you believe in social progress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687 "2018-12-25T16:49:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/21 "2018-12-26T01:04:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I know the anwer but I want you to look it up. Who was the first black Congressman and what party was he in and what year did it take place. Then look up the second black Congressman. Repeat the process. Let us all know how many were voted in before the next party managed it and note the years all this took place. Let me get you started: … > This is the answer to your question of oppression by a political party. :smack: King Edward III the Confessor was not the same man as King Edward III of Windsor. Lipton Tea is not the same company as Lipton Law. Broadway in San Francisco is not the same street as New York’s Broadway. The American Football League is not the same as the American League of Major League Baseball. I’ll assume you don’t need a cite for any of these. The Republican Party of the 19th century is not the same party as the Republican Party of the 21st century. Did you really not know this? Or, did you think that by pretending to be ignorant you could fool someone? ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/22 "2018-12-26T01:12:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What we understand today as the “nuclear family” is a man a woman and their children together. That is not a model that has been idealized or common for more than a few decades. > > Families were considered in much broader terms as western civilization flourished—grandparents, aunts, uncles, adoptees, wards, attached serving folk. And all those people had close connections throughout their community to create networks of support. Marriages were often unstable—husbands or wives left for new lovers or were unreliable because of alcoholism. They were replaced by informal replacements—“maiden aunts” and “confirmed bachelors.” Children stayed with their parents and grandparents throughout their lives. Grandparents substituted for unreliable parents. > > This was a generous, flexible system of family, not at all like the mean, anaemic concept of a nuclear family rooted in false nostalgia for the 1950s. > > Again, none of this has anything to do with any natural, inherent characteristic of “illegitimacy” but only the deliberately small-minded social institutions we have built to punish it. I’m aware that extended families were extremely important for a long time, and that children even born to a married mom-and-dad can have a rough time of it if one or both of the parents is a piece of dirt. But the vast norm was always a married mom & dad having the kids. What we’ve seen over the last few decades is an explosion of illegitimate births across the industrialized world. And there is a cost associated with this. We can have taxpayer-funded poverty programs to help these kids. I’m fine with that. But in almost all countries, increased illegitimacy is associated with more poverty, regardless of how much money we throw at it. It’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/23 "2018-12-26T01:19:21Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > What we’ve seen over the last few decades is an explosion of illegitimate births across the industrialized world. And there is a cost associated with this. This costs is not some inevitability inherent in the idea of illegitimacy. Illegitimacy itself is a manufactured notion that has no natural connection to costs or successes. It has to do with a society that first conceives of illegitimacy as an idea and second structures itself to make illegitimacy a disadvantage. We are all of a species that individually come into existence when two matched members fuck. That’s it. illegitimacy or legitimacy is a fiction that impoverishes each of us individually as collectively as a people. It’s a nothing that we have chosen to punish ourselves with. Note that for the privileged can have serial marriages, nominally making all issue “legitimate,” but essentially being no morally different in character than the poor whose behavior is essentially identical. > [@](#): > > We can have taxpayer-funded poverty programs to help these kids. I’m fine with that. “Taxpayer-funded poverty programs” is a nothing when addressing fundamental societal problems. Our society should be built so that illegitimacy as a concept is a null. > [@](#): > > But in almost all countries, increased illegitimacy is associated with more poverty, regardless of how much money we throw at it. It’s a problem. This is a relic of a diseased system, not some fundamental truth. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/24 "2018-12-26T01:27:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This costs is not some inevitability inherent in the idea of illegitimacy. Illegitimacy itself is a manufactured notion that has no natural connection to costs or successes. It has to do with a society that first conceives of illegitimacy as an idea and second structures itself to make illegitimacy a disadvantage. > > We are all of a species that individually come into existence when two matched members fuck. That’s it. illegitimacy or legitimacy is a fiction that impoverishes each of us individually as collectively as a people. It’s a nothing that we have chosen to punish ourselves with. > > Note that for the privileged can have serial marriages, nominally making all issue “legitimate,” but essentially being no morally different in character than the poor whose behavior is essentially identical. > > “Taxpayer-funded poverty programs” is a nothing when addressing fundamental societal problems. Our society should be built so that illegitimacy as a concept is a null. > > This is a relic of a diseased system, not some fundamental truth. That’s all a bunch of babble which allows you to avoid the economic reality of illegitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/25 "2018-12-26T01:30:25Z")
Not to mention that illegitimacy as it is measured among the non-wealthy is an _effect_, a consequence, of social and economic policy, not an independent factor. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/26 "2018-12-26T01:33:01Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > That’s all a bunch of babble which allows you to avoid the economic reality of illegitimacy. While you can just quote statistics that have no root in cause or effect. You find blame for the manufactured concept of illegitimacy because you want to stain others with the guilt of a crime. So then you can distract us from policies that actually have some basis in human concern. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/27 "2018-12-26T01:39:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You find blame for the manufactured concept of illegitimacy because you want to stain others with the guilt of a crime. That’s complete bullshit. This is a thread on social progress, and this is one area which has gotten worse in the US. You can dodge and duck the reality all you want. I care more about the situation these children are in than you. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/28 "2018-12-26T01:41:18Z")
No, really, conservatism is all about allowing the privileged to maintain their privilege while behaving exactly as everyone else does. They fuck whom they want, they cheat, rape, steal. And nothing touches them, because they benefit from conceptual fictions like “legitimacy” that protect their ability to hoard resources. But anyone else, they behave just as the people at the top, no better and no worse, but their small trespasses are not forgiven, not to mention the large. A ticket for walking in the wrong place from the Ferguson, Missouri, police can send them into a spiral of ruin. Illegitimacy becomes a mark of doom, though it is nothing but the absence of a piece of paper and the lack of money to obtain divorces. It’s all a pageant to hide the ball. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/29 "2018-12-26T01:44:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, really, conservatism is all about allowing the privileged to maintain their privilege while behaving exactly as everyone else does. They fuck whom they want, they cheat, rape, steal. And nothing touches them, because they benefit from conceptual fictions like “legitimacy” that protect their ability to hoard resources. > > But anyone else, they behave just as the people at the top, no better and no worse, but their small trespasses are not forgiven, not to mention the large. A ticket for walking in the wrong place from the Ferguson, Missouri, police can send them into a spiral of ruin. Illegitimacy becomes a mark of doom, though it is nothing but the absence of a piece of paper and the lack of money to obtain divorces. > > It’s all a pageant to hide the ball. OK, man. Enjoy your planet. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/30 "2018-12-26T01:54:16Z")
Yeah, and you can cover your eyes with bullshit-colored glasses in the form of concepts like illegitimacy to avoid doing anything real to eliminate privilege and injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/31 "2018-12-26T10:26:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Families were considered in much broader terms as western civilization flourished—grandparents, aunts, uncles, adoptees, wards, attached serving folk. Granted, but they were all based around the core concept of the family of the man (the provider), the woman (the nurturer), and the children (the next generation). Yes, others could substitute for those roles but the roles remained. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/32 "2018-12-26T14:15:20Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > …For example, if we look at the history books, it was the Democrats who mostly opposed process on the civil rights bills. … The OP didn’t mention Democrats or Republicans. Were those Democrats you’re thinking of conservative or liberal? When the Dixiecrats become Republican, did they instantly switch from liberal to conservative? But, wait, Republicans are liberal because they freed the slaves – are they still liberal? It’s a mystery. To the OP, I’m not a conservative, so I don’t feel qualified to really answer the question. My impression is that, historically, conservatives wanted to slow down social progress, but not necessarily move it backwards – they wanted slow, conservative progress. My impression of conservatives today is that they want to take America back to when it was “great” in their mind, maybe the 1950s? That’s not really conservative, it’s reactionary. For example, you can see this in the Southern Baptists where they (recently?) stated that women should be subservient to men (maybe they’ve changed that by now, I don’t know) – that’s not conservative, it’s reactionary. Also, the various White Supremacist groups who call themselves “conservative” are really reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/33 "2018-12-26T16:20:07Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > … As a Conservative in 2018 USA, do you believe that in the year 2018 we have made all the useful social progress that we are going to make? … No. For a couple of examples, I hope that in the coming years / decades the rights of the unborn will see greater protection in our laws, and government-sponsored discrimination against Asians will end. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/34 "2018-12-26T16:39:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, really, conservatism is all about allowing the privileged to maintain their privilege while behaving exactly as everyone else does. They fuck whom they want, they cheat, rape, steal Yeah, I know. I was tempted to post as a conservative just to add an endorsement of cheating, rape and theft.\* \*You forgot genocide. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/35 "2018-12-26T17:45:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The OP didn’t mention Democrats or Republicans. Were those Democrats you’re thinking of conservative or liberal? When the Dixiecrats become Republican, did they instantly switch from liberal to conservative? But, wait, Republicans are liberal because they freed the slaves – are they still liberal? It’s a mystery. > > To the OP, I’m not a conservative, so I don’t feel qualified to really answer the question. My impression is that, historically, conservatives wanted to slow down social progress, but not necessarily move it backwards – they wanted slow, conservative progress. My impression of conservatives today is that they want to take America back to when it was “great” in their mind, maybe the 1950s? That’s not really conservative, it’s reactionary. For example, you can see this in the Southern Baptists where they (recently?) stated that women should be subservient to men (maybe they’ve changed that by now, I don’t know) – that’s not conservative, it’s reactionary. Also, the various White Supremacist groups who call themselves “conservative” are really reactionary. **RitterSport** , I find this to be an extremely insightful and enlightening post. Thank you. To tell the truth, I’m not sure I even know what a conservative is in our present-day American context since the term has meant vastly different things in different times and places. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/36 "2018-12-26T19:26:37Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > When we look back on the history books, we see that we have mistreated a lot of folks. Women haven’t been treated equally, people of color haven’t been treated fairly. Gay, lesbian and transgendered people haven’t been treated fairly. Through a modern lens, a lot of what we have done in the past has been unfair towards minority groups. As a Conservative in 2018 USA, do you believe that in the year 2018 we have made all the useful social progress that we are going to make? Or even, that we should revert to a time in the past where things were “better”? Libertarian here, not conservative, but I have some conservative views and I read conservative sources so I actually understand how conservatives think better than most people who are posting in this thread. Asking about “progress” is pointless. As Chesterton said, “Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative.” In case anyone doesn’t understand the point, that means: it’s only meaningful to measure progress as the movement towards some goal. Without agreement on what the goal is, any statement about “progress” is meaningless. The people who babble constantly about the need for “progress” never tell us what goal they’re progressing towards. For libertarians the goal is always freedom. In some areas, America now provides more freedom than in earlier generations. Yay! In other areas, America now provides less freedom than in earlier generations. Boo! Let’s say you’re a man who wants to smoke marijuana and have sex with other men. In 1900 the marijuana was legal and the sex with other men was illegal. In 2018 the sex with other men is legal and the marijuana is illegal (in most places). Increase in freedom? Decrease in freedom? Depends on your priorities. So-called progressives are able to have massive blind spots about the cases where freedom has gone downhill. The most obvious one is what we call “mass incarceration”, i.e. the fact that on any given day, millions of Americans are in prison, and millions more are in jail, or awaiting trial, or on probation, or otherwise getting cycled through the law enforcement system. This is because of [legislatio](https://theblackdetour.com/1994-crime-black-communities/)n that progressives, in most cases, have supported. In the 1950’s, when America was great, slides rules were all the rage, and _Leave it to Beaver_ was cutting-edge entertainment, imprisonment rates were much lower. But then again, though few people remember it much today, in the 50’s we had a vast mental health system consisting of enormous asylums and mental health hospitals. It was a very progressive system, run and staffed by scientific people bringing a forward-looking approach to mental health care. And it involved millions of people being kidnapped and imprisoned against their will and subjected to horrifying tortures such as electroshock, but that’s scarcely worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/37 "2018-12-26T20:23:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > An interesting question. I’d call it a strawman because you’re trying to set up pins to knock down. But since you’re trying to tar a group of voters for past sins I’ll answer with a question. I know the anwer but I want you to look it up. Who was the first black Congressman and what party was he in and what year did it take place. Then look up the second black Congressman. Repeat the process. Let us all know how many were voted in before the next party managed it and note the years all this took place. Let me get you started: [Senators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_United_States_Senators) [Congressman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_United_States_Representatives) > > Then look up which party created the KKK to stop voters from electing black people to Congress. Note the timeline above. > > **And finally, which party kept a high ranking former member of the KKK in Office until he died of old age.** > > This is the answer to your question of oppression by a political party. Why is Robert Byrd always trotted out in these type of discussions :rolleyes:? The reason that his party “kept him in office till he died of old age” was that he personally progressed in his views as the times changed. When he died he was praised by the NAACP and attacked by those who refused to follow him in making progress in their own personal views. Here is an article that will explain his story. > **[Opinion | At least Robert Byrd apologized. What’s your excuse, David Duke?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/03/02/at-least-robert-byrd-apologized-whats-your-excuse-david-duke/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0345d16a3876)** > > Duke is incapable of following Byrd's example. What I find sad is that there are so few examples of people like him in recent history. Instead of repenting and trying to atone for their regressive views the way Byrd did, most of his contemporaries just switched parties and continued being racist (Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond, David Duke, and so on). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/38 "2018-12-27T13:47:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > **RitterSport** , I find this to be an extremely insightful and enlightening post. Thank you. > … :o Aw, shucks. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/39 "2018-12-27T14:03:45Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The OP didn’t mention Democrats or Republicans. Were those Democrats you’re thinking of conservative or liberal? When the Dixiecrats become Republican, did they instantly switch from liberal to conservative? But, wait, Republicans are liberal because they freed the slaves – are they still liberal? It’s a mystery. > > To the OP, I’m not a conservative, so I don’t feel qualified to really answer the question. My impression is that, historically, conservatives wanted to slow down social progress, but not necessarily move it backwards – they wanted slow, conservative progress. My impression of conservatives today is that they want to take America back to when it was “great” in their mind, maybe the 1950s? That’s not really conservative, it’s reactionary. For example, you can see this in the Southern Baptists where they (recently?) stated that women should be subservient to men (maybe they’ve changed that by now, I don’t know) – that’s not conservative, it’s reactionary. Also, the various White Supremacist groups who call themselves “conservative” are really reactionary. This is a good reminder of how the label of “conservative” is abused. I don’t consider Donald Trump or anything he represents as conservative. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687/40 "2018-12-27T16:21:39Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > This is a good reminder of how the label of “conservative” is abused. I don’t consider Donald Trump or anything he represents as conservative. He’s the head of the republican party, so are you saying that you do not consider republicans to be conservative? Is there anyone that you would consider to be conservative, or are all the true scotsmen extinct now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-believe-in-social-progress/826687.md?page=3)