# Conservatives: Do you hope that the stimulus plan fails to work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136 "2009-02-16T19:02:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/61 "2009-02-18T20:20:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The quote was from you…that’s why I put it in parenthesis. No, people can be empirically motivated. Data cannot be motivated. > [@](#): > > As for data being data…even assuming for a moment that the data is 100% accurate, how it’s spun or interpreted is often a rather large variable. I’ve seen plenty of examples of people using the exact same data to show two wildly different points. Data is data. Spinning is spinning. This is a table of data. Feel free to spin, but quit pretending that it is somehow already spun. I know it doesn’t fit with what your preconceptions might be. > [@](#): > > I do love the fact that you put in the A=A thingy though. Whatever else you are Hentor you are certainly a droll fellow and I rather like you for that alone. I referenced that because I would expect an objectivist to be able to objectively address the data, rather than handwave and dodge. > [@](#): > > What you take as natural fact I see as simply another facet of partisan viewpoint wrt the OP. Conservatives ALSO trot out data indicating that their (partisan) viewpoint is a natural fact clearly showing that when liberals are in office the economy is going to eventually tank… They do? Where? Show me such data, please. If you look, they don’t refer to data. They make statements absent facts and engage in handwaving and dodging. > [@](#): > > It worked out that those critical of Bush were right (hell, they had a 50/50 chance of being right after all, at least on something related to Bush bad/good). Perhaps those critical of Obama will equally be right (50/50 on some point). > > -XT It must suck to go through life thinking that everything is a 50/50 proposition, that each thing arises anew, and that you cannot make predictions based on past performances. It’s not a very objective way of going about things. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/62 "2009-02-18T21:28:56Z")
Since you didn’t want to do it, I started [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10844795#post10844795) thread in GQ to ask the question and see what answers some of our economically savvy 'dopers come up with. [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] It must suck to go through life thinking that everything is a 50/50 proposition, that each thing arises anew, and that you cannot make predictions based on past performances. It’s not a very objective way of going about things. [/QUOTE] I think it’s entirely objective to judge what actually happens without a predisposed mind set. YMMV of course. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/63 "2009-02-18T21:48:48Z")
> [@lee](#): > > This is what I initially thought was all he said, but on listening to an expanded recording, I thought it was on another day, it seemed to me that he also hoped Obama would fail in every way possible, not the policies which Rush found socialist. > > Any way, the question remains, are you as a conservative hoping the stimulus fails, and if so, why is that what you want? Of course Rush wants Obama to fail. An Obama success would mean that Rush’s ideology is called into question. It’s just code when he says he wants Obama’s socialist policies to fail considering from Rush’s perspective Obama is a straight socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/64 "2009-02-19T03:21:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Since you didn’t want to do it, I started [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10844795#post10844795) thread in GQ to ask the question and see what answers some of our economically savvy 'dopers come up with. Interesting. I added another data source and a clarification that the eRiposte data does not include the last four years under a Republican president. > [@](#): > > I think it’s entirely objective to judge what actually happens without a predisposed mind set. YMMV of course. I think the important thing is being able to judge what **happened** and use that information going forward. Unless you long for a life of constant surprises. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/65 "2009-02-19T16:21:39Z")
To hope they fail would be dumb. I am afraid they may fail. And if they do fail it will take the country to recover. I for one would rather the wrong thing be tried then nothing. If our ecconomy keeps going in the direction it is going to get really ugly. ie read stories about the 30’s ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/66 "2009-02-19T16:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I think the important thing is being able to judge what happened and use that information going forward. Unless you long for a life of constant surprises. [/QUOTE] I long for a life of constant surprises, yes. And I think, based on the GQ thread, that prediction is not nearly so mechanical as you seem to be thinking it is, nor are the issues nearly so cut and dried. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/67 "2009-02-19T16:40:46Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Do you honestly think that Rush is hoping that Obama will fail to defend the country against terrorists? Or fail to promote law and order? Or fail to help the economy recover? > > As I said, I’m not a fan of Rush Limbaugh. Still, I think it’s clear that people are allowing their hatred for Rush to color their perceptions. Their distaste for the man causes them to interpret his words in the most extreme, most heinous manner possible. I don’t believe he actually “hopes” that our nation falls into deeper turmoil than we’re already in, but I do think that Rush would love to be proven “right” about whatever bizarre rantings he’s spouted about Obama’s intentions. He is the worst kind of attention whore. His regular listeners must have a fuckin’ screw loose. I see no conduit to knowledge or understanding through Thrush Windbag. He needs to shut the fuck up and let the rest of us try to find a solution to our problems. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/68 "2009-02-19T16:52:26Z")
Thank you, **Kalhoun**. As I said, I’m not a fan of Rush Limbaugh. Okay, I don’t detest him the way you do, and I’m sure that I agree with his viewpoints more than you would. However, I do commend you for seeing that there’s a difference between saying that Rush would like to be proven right and saying that he actually wants the country to go down the toilet. Unfortunately, some people detest Rush so much that they want to believe the absolute worst about him, even without any specific evidence to back that up. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/69 "2009-02-19T17:00:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I long for a life of constant surprises, yes. And I think, based on the GQ thread, that prediction is not nearly so mechanical as you seem to be thinking it is, nor are the issues nearly so cut and dried. > > -XT Why? Because **Richard Parker** says so? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/70 "2009-02-19T17:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Why? Because Richard Parker says so? [/QUOTE] While I trust his impartiality a bit more than your own, no…not just because he says so. Based on some of the links I’ve read in that thread so far though it confirms (to me) even more so that your cites are simply playing games with statistics in order to ‘prove’ a position the authors (and you) already assumed. IOW they are fitting the data to confirm a pre-disposed position. I guess we’ll see how that thread turns out. Thus far I’m a bit disappointed in the replies, but I’m still hopeful it will pick up as folks notice it. I know there are several 'dopers with some fairly heavy duty economics creds on this board. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/71 "2009-02-19T18:31:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Based on some of the links I’ve read in that thread so far though it confirms (to me) even more so that your cites are simply playing games with statistics in order to ‘prove’ a position the authors (and you) already assumed. I take this as a serious charge. These are simply desciptive statistics (means, counts and so forth), so their accuracy can easily be confirmed. Please tell me specifically which ones are in error, and I will confirm or reject it. If any are in error, I will regard the whole list as suspect. I look forward to your reply. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/72 "2009-02-19T18:45:23Z")
Statistics don’t have to be incorrect to be USED or spun in misleading ways. I’m not questioning the statistics (for one thing, as I’ve already stated, I don’t know enough about this subject to make an informed assertion…thus the GQ thread which was supposed to deflect this hijack into that thread)…I’m questioning the conclusions you are drawing from them. I’ve already stated this, so I’m unsure why you are asking me this yet again…and in this thread instead of in the other one where this question is being asked. However, since you seem to require some additional illumination on what I said, let me restate it again: While the statistics you are using MAY be completely accurate I question the conclusions you are drawing based on those statistics. Reading through some of the cites in the other thread it seems apparent that A) there is a pretty low level of data points, B) minor changes in a few data points completely changes the results, C) your statistics doesn’t take into proper account other variables (such as control of Congress, orientation and direction of individual Presidents wrt their own economic policies and how that correlates to conservative/liberal economic models or even traditional Democrat vs Republican economic stances, etc etc), and D) simply because it appears that statistics shows a trend does not necessarily mean such a trend exists. People love patterns and they are geared to see patterns even when they aren’t there. Finally, even if your assertions are 100% accurate, without understanding the why of the trends shown there is no way to make accurate predictions about the future based solely on these supposed trends in any case. It could just be one of those little statistical quirks like the old ‘the taller president always wins’. Interesting factoid, but one that shouldn’t be used too heavily to predict future presidential contests. Anyway, I really think that you should continue this discussion in the other thread. You seem to be doing fairly well over there and I’m definitely interested in continuing to monitor the discussion and see how it turns out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/73 "2009-02-19T18:53:35Z")
While I realize this is an over-simplification, isn’t the very core principle of conservatism that such government intervention will always fail–if not sooner, then later? Therefore I expect that any conservative, at least to the extent their conservatism isn’t offset by other political motivations, expects that the stimulus will fail. IOW “hope” has got nothing to do with it; by the principles of economics in which they believe, it should fail. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/74 "2009-02-19T18:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] While I realize this is an over-simplification, isn’t the very core principle of conservatism that such government intervention will always fail–if not sooner, then later? Therefore I expect that any conservative, at least to the extent their conservatism isn’t offset by other political motivations, expects that the stimulus will fail. IOW “hope” has got nothing to do with it; by the principles of economics in which they believe, it should fail. [/QUOTE] In principal I think you are correct. I don’t think that all economic conservatives feel that ANY government intervention will categorically fail. I think most of them would feel that government intervention would most likely be sub-optimal to other things…though even economic conservatives acknowledge (AFAIK) that SOMETIMES government intervention is necessary. But yeah…I don’t think that ‘hope’ really factors in. ‘Expect’ is a better word. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/75 "2009-02-20T07:27:11Z")
What I hope, is irrelevant. The fact that the package is largely composed of transfer payments and make-work projects dooms it to failure. We are really up a creek, and we have been handed a broken paddle. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136/76 "2009-02-20T07:33:17Z")
I’m fashionably late to this thread, but Hell No I don’t want the stimulus to fail. I want it to succeed better than anything have ever succeeded before…good of country \> partisan politics. Doesn’t mean I think it’s a good idea…but maybe it won’t suck. FDR’s public works projects seemed to turn out ok. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-do-you-hope-that-the-stimulus-plan-fails-to-work/486136.md?page=3)