# Conservatives: Does it piss you off that Rush's asinine approach is discrediting a valid point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496 "2012-03-11T22:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/121 "2012-03-25T09:14:50Z")
> [@Whambulance](#): > > I make about 20k a year and pay around $500 a month out of pocket for health insurance for a family of 3, but a stranger whom I don’t know (the beneficiary of a comparatively expensive education) would like for me, a fellow policy holder, to pay for an additional part of her healthcare so that she no longer has to. Translation: She should just crawl off in a corner and die so you can have a few extra cents in your bank accounts. > [@Whambulance](#): > > Why not discuss her plight and not how evil I am?.. and if you were genuinely compassionate about her cause, why not mine? I am; you are just ignoring it because it underlines how amoral and selfish your position is. You don’t want to admit that ultimately, you are talking about condemning people to suffering, permanent harm and death so you can keep a tiny bit more money. And you are trying to demonize my side; talking about “culture wars”, about how we are insulting and demonizing you by daring to argue that you actually owe something to the rest of humanity, and trying to pretend that this is about people being unwilling to pay, instead of unable. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/122 "2012-03-25T11:31:47Z")
Did you read my post Whambulance? Insurance is a combination of the following: gambling that you won’t get ill (where the insurance company stands to gain if you remain healthy), donating to the fund for insurance company CEOs and to a degree, paying for other people’s healthcare. That’s a community based, socialistic practice. If you’re unhappy that your money is going to be used to pay for something you disagree with, try campaigning for a democratisation of the insurance system, perhaps a majority of customers would hold the same opinion. Both of us would agree that insurance companies are not accountable to the people they insure. If you’re unhappy with the social contract in toto (in that a majority may reach the opposite conclusion as you), teach yourself how to practice medicine and buy your own provisions. If you don’t want people to belittle you for practicing “rugged individualism”, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/123 "2012-03-25T18:11:52Z")
> [@Whambulance](#): > > I’m just saying, if you are genuinely compassionate about this individuals health, why go about this argument with such an agenda based precision? Why not discuss her plight and not how evil I am?.. and if you were genuinely compassionate about her cause, why not mine? I’m just a guy having a hard time paying my own way. As a fellow policy holder, will her having to pay less not affect me? Who will pay the difference? It honestly took me until graduate school to really grasp that the conservative mindset, upon experiencing or reflecting on their own hardship, is not to ask “How can we change this to make it so others don’t suffer in the same way that I have?” but to say “I went through this, everyone else should too.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/124 "2012-03-25T18:23:24Z")
> [@Whambulance](#): > > When I question your socialistic pack mentality on this I’m met with: > > Demonize me .. > > Isolate me .. > > Belittle me .. A pack of one? So what do you think of all the other posters? Some of us don’t even read said posters posts let alone agree with him on much. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/125 "2012-03-25T20:10:50Z")
> [@Whambulance](#): > > I make about 20k a year and pay around $500 a month out of pocket for health insurance for a family of 3, but a stranger whom I don’t know (the beneficiary of a comparatively expensive education) would like for me, a fellow policy holder, to pay for an additional part of her healthcare so that she no longer has to. Because that’s how insurance works. By definition she’s also footing the bill for your healthcare, and it’s not her fault you’re poor. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/126 "2012-03-26T04:05:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Did she argue it should be free , or diod she simply argue that it should be covered by insurance and the school should not be able to get an exemption? Wasn’t she arguing that the government should mandate contraception coverage? Then the counter argument is that this mandate is requiring some who have a moral objection, such as the Catholic church, to pay for it? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/127 "2012-03-26T07:10:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Then the counter argument is that this mandate is requiring some who have a moral objection, such as the Catholic church, to pay for it? I’ve watched the testimony and she mostly discussed legitimate uses for contraception within Catholic theology. There was already a stipulation that religious institutions do not have to provide the coverage if they don’t employ non-Catholics IIRC, or if they were not performing a secular service (churches as opposes to schools and hospitals). That’s the impression I got from reading the accompanying material in the thread, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/128 "2012-03-26T12:17:02Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Wasn’t she arguing that the government should mandate contraception coverage? Then the counter argument is that this mandate is requiring some who have a moral objection, such as the Catholic church, to pay for it? To which I say so what. Jehovah’s Witnesses have a moral objection to blood transfers, but I don’t see anyone arguing that JW employers should have the right to exclude their company’s insurance from paying for any transfusions. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/129 "2012-03-26T12:57:22Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > To which I say so what. Jehovah’s Witnesses have a moral objection to blood transfers, but I don’t see anyone arguing that JW employers should have the right to exclude their company’s insurance from paying for any transfusions. Firstly, wouldn’t you agree that there is a quantifiable difference between blood transfusions and birth control? Secondly, birth control of all kinds is readily available without having somebody else pay for it. To couch the debate in terms of health concerns is disengenuous at best, which goes to the larger issue of government mandates anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/130 "2012-03-26T13:10:21Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Firstly, wouldn’t you agree that there is a quantifiable difference between blood transfusions and birth control? Not with regard to the religious freedom argument. If Catholics can object to birth control, JWs can object to blood transfusions. There is no difference if you support absolute religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/131 "2012-03-27T02:47:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not with regard to the religious freedom argument. If Catholics can object to birth control, JWs can object to blood transfusions. There is no difference if you support absolute religious freedom. That’s utter nonsense. In every way one can use the word. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/132 "2012-03-27T03:35:10Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Firstly, wouldn’t you agree that there is a quantifiable difference between blood transfusions and birth control? Other than the fact that hormonal birth control is typically a maintenance medication, while transfusions generally aren’t, no. Why, what difference do you perceive? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/133 "2012-03-27T06:17:25Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > That’s utter nonsense. In every way one can use the word. Disagree. The comparison seems apt to me. Why do you allow the government to compel the JW business owner to pay for something he finds morally objectionable, but want to allow the RC business owner not to pay for something he finds morally objectionable? Do you really want the government in the business of deciding which religious moral objections are valid and which aren’t? That’s the whole point of separation of church and state: we don’t want a government commission saying, “Your religion is ‘mainstream,’ but yours is a ‘fringe cult.’” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/134 "2012-03-27T10:37:59Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > That’s utter nonsense. In every way one can use the word. Let us count the ways. You go first. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/135 "2012-03-27T13:46:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Other than the fact that hormonal birth control is typically a maintenance medication, while transfusions generally aren’t, no. Why, what difference do you perceive? this should answer some of the questions below as well. Because the government, in its truest form (whether or not it iexists in that form is another disucssion) has a responsibility to defend its citizens. The question is not which religion should be protected, the question is which practice - birth control or blood transfusions - should be allowed, or subsidized, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/136 "2012-03-27T14:16:03Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > The question is not which religion should be protected, the question is which practice - birth control or blood transfusions - should be allowed, or subsidized, or whatever. That is a question, but it is not the question we are considering here: Do religious organizations other than churches have the right to limit benefits they have a moral objection to? If the answer is yes, the government cannot then decide which benefits are subject to religious exemption without violating the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/137 "2012-03-27T14:30:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is a question, but it is not the question we are considering here: Do religious organizations other than churches have the right to limit benefits they have a moral objection to? If the answer is yes, the government cannot then decide which benefits are subject to religious exemption without violating the First Amendment. Yes it is the question we are considering. If the organization’s moral objection, like birth control, does not put another in harm then they most certainly do. Or should. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/138 "2012-03-27T15:09:58Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > this should answer some of the questions below as well. > > Because the government, in its truest form (whether or not it iexists in that form is another disucssion) has a responsibility to defend its citizens. The question is not which religion should be protected, the question is which practice - birth control or blood transfusions - should be allowed, or subsidized, or whatever. You didn’t answer _my_ question, let alone any below. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/139 "2012-03-27T15:23:53Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Yes it is the question we are considering. If the organization’s moral objection, like birth control, does not put another in harm then they most certainly do. Or should. So the federal government should decide if a religious organizations moral objection puts another in harm? What is the nature of harm? Couldn’t that be applied to contraception, which is used to prevent harm (such as ovarian cysts) in many cases? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496/140 "2012-03-27T21:21:42Z")
> [@](#): > > So the federal government should decide if a religious organizations moral objection puts another in harm It does for everything else, and religious groups make up a part of societal fabric, so that bit of intrusion is certainly reasonable. > [@](#): > > What is the nature of harm? I meant physical harm.Serious harm. And could even mean mental harm, though I would have a much tougher time with that. > [@](#): > > Couldn’t that be applied to contraception, which is used to prevent harm (such as ovarian cysts) in many cases? In this case, no. If someone wants contraception as a remedy for that potential illness, they are certainly welcome to get it. I don’t hear of the RCC wanting to outlaw contraception, they just don’t want to pay for it. That’s a reasonable distinction to make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-does-it-piss-you-off-that-rushs-asinine-approach-is-discrediting-a-valid-point/615496.md?page=8)