# Conservatives hate being forced to buy health insurance, but they're OK with mandating ultrasounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672 "2012-03-13T18:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/61 "2012-03-14T16:01:50Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Turn that around and that’s my position on guns. Or you could turn it around the other way. To buy a gun you first have to watch videos of various gunshot victims. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’m glad my urologist wasn’t forced to do an ultrasound of my _vasa deferentia_ before snipping them. I hope you’re not a Roman Catholic, or if you are, that you no longer have sex. Have sex without any chance of procreation and you’re on your way to hell. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/62 "2012-03-14T16:04:03Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The problem with that argument is that pregnancy is not just a weird phenomenon. It’s an often dangerous medical condition with potentially serious consequences for the woman in question. I’ve been pregnant several times if you include ectopics and chemicals… > > A pregnancy is a medical condition. It’s a medical condition of having another person inside you, if you believe a fetus is a person. It’s qualitatively different than any other medical condition. > [@DianaG](#): > > Conjoined, but really the problem is the ineptitude of the analogy. OK, then I plead insensitive boor. But you seemed to get the analogy, anyway, since you said if one twin was, essentially, a parasite of the other, then the functionally independent twin has the right. That’s a fair answer. I was just trying to reframe the question in neutral terms, as a person who sees a fetus as a person might see it. Can you at least respect that in that situation, a reasonable person might have a different answer than you? Especially if (please indulge me this crazy hypothetical), one twin was completely dependent on the other now, but had a good chance of _growing into_ an independent, separate-able twin? I think probably, since you already acknowledge **Bricker** ’s position on abortion is like yours with guns. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/63 "2012-03-14T16:19:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It’s a medical condition of having another person inside you, if you believe a fetus is a person. It’s qualitatively different than any other medical condition. > > OK, then I plead insensitive boor. > > But you seemed to get the analogy, anyway, since you said if one twin was, essentially, a parasite of the other, then the functionally independent twin has the right. That’s a fair answer. I was just trying to reframe the question in neutral terms, as a person who sees a fetus as a person might see it. Can you at least respect that in that situation, a reasonable person might have a different answer than you? Especially if (please indulge me this crazy hypothetical), one twin was completely dependent on the other now, but had a good chance of _growing into_ an independent, separate-able twin? > > I think probably, since you already acknowledge **Bricker** ’s position on abortion is like yours with guns. See the thing is I don’t think I should have to give a damn about what pro-lifers think. I don’t care if they believe a fertilized egg is a person. After multiple failed IVF’s I know personally a fertilized egg is not a person. And I have the pics to prove it. I certainly don’t agree with them that a fetus is a person. If they are going to attempt to legislate based on what I view as an idiotic belief not backed up in science and one that directly threatens the health of women I’m going to treat them as nothing more than people who have an idiotic belief. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/64 "2012-03-14T16:25:33Z")
A 6 wk fetus is no more a person than a newborn baby girl is a good mother. They have the _potential_, yes, but there is an awful lot that has to happen correctly for that potential to be realized. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/65 "2012-03-14T16:43:18Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Can you at least respect that in that situation, a reasonable person might have a different answer than you? Especially if (please indulge me this crazy hypothetical), one twin was completely dependent on the other now, but had a good chance of _growing into_ an independent, separate-able twin? Not really, no. I firmly believe that the rights of actual existing people trump the rights of maybe potential people. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/66 "2012-03-14T16:52:02Z")
We had some abortion protesters on campus last week, complete with scary shock pictures. I stopped to talk to them (two young women; I’m a guy), and it was interesting. Their entire rhetorical strategy was to convince me that a fetus was a living human. I had no problem with that; I just feel that a woman’s rights over her own body trumped the right to life of a fetus. That upset their usual rhetorical strategies (mostly slippery slope), and in the course of trying to argue me around to their position made it clear that they felt that by engaging in sex, a woman incurs the obligation to carry any child conceived to term. They volunteered an exception in the case of rape, which I felt was logically inconsistent, but that’s beside the point. In 40 years on the planet I’d never actually talked to the pro-life crowd. It was fascinating how quickly their arguments boiled down to two fundamentials, (1) babies are cute and (2) women shouldn’t be allowed free access to sex. I don’t know how typical they were of their ilk, but it certainly does seem consistent with the lawmakers’ positions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/67 "2012-03-14T17:50:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am strongly pro-life. I am absolutely convinced that a five-week pregnancy is a human being, and terminating it is killing a human being. > > However, I oppose this law. > > Why? I agree it will have an effect of stopping at least some abortions, and so you’d think I’d be all for it. > > But… that’s not the way we ought to do things. This is, in principle, no different from anti-gun municipal governments forced to acknowledge that gun ownership is technically legal, but throwing every obstacle they can in the way of the actual exercise of that right. > > Here, we have a bill that intrudes on the personal liberty of doctors and patients seeking abortions. The state should have every right in the world to forbid abortion outright, but they don’t, because the law of the land says otherwise. So the proper procedure is to change the law of the land. We balance the personal intrusion on liberty against the fact that the doctor and the patient wish to exercise a perfectly legal right, and the intrusion on liberty must lost. That’s a bad outcome, but the way to fix it is change the law on abortion as a whole. As long as it is legal, as long as it is considered a right, laws like this are unjustified. > > Pro-life, but consistent. That’s me. You realize that is pro-choice? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/68 "2012-03-14T17:57:33Z")
'cept that one presumes most pro-choicers would not support a constitutional amendment to reverse the right to abortion that was deemed to exist in _Roe v. Wade_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/69 "2012-03-14T18:02:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > To me is it simply the reasonable way to respect and honor the life of the unborn child who will soon be dead. I’m not talking about transvaginal ultrasounds, women’s right to abortion IMHO includes her right to refuse such invasive procedures for the fetus, nor does it require she views the ultrasound. But a external ultrasound is just a way to acknowledge that the fetus is one of us, a human just in bad circumstances. Not that I consider myself a conservative. Well, given that I believe fundamentalist type of religion is not only counter-factual but dangerous to liberty, I say we require all fundamentalist congregations to see a series of lectures by atheists on the historical inaccuracy of their beliefs and the logical absurdity of the Bible. They can continue to believe, but they should be informed. Have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/70 "2012-03-14T18:31:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > We had some abortion protesters on campus last week, complete with scary shock pictures. I stopped to talk to them (two young women; I’m a guy), and it was interesting. Their entire rhetorical strategy was to convince me that a fetus was a living human. I had no problem with that; I just feel that a woman’s rights over her own body trumped the right to life of a fetus. That upset their usual rhetorical strategies (mostly slippery slope), and in the course of trying to argue me around to their position made it clear that they felt that by engaging in sex, a woman incurs the obligation to carry any child conceived to term. They volunteered an exception in the case of rape, which I felt was logically inconsistent, but that’s beside the point. > > In 40 years on the planet I’d never actually talked to the pro-life crowd. It was fascinating how quickly their arguments boiled down to two fundamentials, (1) babies are cute and (2) women shouldn’t be allowed free access to sex. I don’t know how typical they were of their ilk, but it certainly does seem consistent with the lawmakers’ positions. I wonder if they ever think about things like short-rib polydactyly syndrome…[http://www.enotes.com/short-rib-polydactyly-reference/short-rib-polydactyly](http://www.enotes.com/short-rib-polydactyly-reference/short-rib-polydactyly) …which will cause the infant to die if delivered. Many parents will opt to abort so they won’t have to go through that and then a funeral. And then there’s the case of the woman whose 11-week pregnancy had to be aborted in order to save her from a life-threatening condition brought on by the pregnancy: [http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515phoenix-catholic-nun-abortion.html](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515phoenix-catholic-nun-abortion.html) She already had 4 kids at home who would have been left motherless had she continued with the pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/71 "2012-03-14T18:38:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It’s a medical condition of having another person inside you, if you believe a fetus is a person. It’s qualitatively different than any other medical condition. No, because it isn’t a person inside of you. Anyone who actually believes that is ignorant or delusional. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/72 "2012-03-14T19:47:13Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 'cept that one presumes most pro-choicers would not support a constitutional amendment to reverse the right to abortion that was deemed to exist in _Roe v. Wade_. So why don’t the Repubs in Congress ever introduce an amendment and then trumpet that introduction and push it as an issue? It isn’t like Republicans aren’t permitted to introduce legislation and then run with it. The reason is that most Republican elites are also pro-choice. They say they would choose not to have an abortion. They get the rank and file all riled up, but never really do anything about it. The reason being is best illustrated by the current right wing war against women: when they say out loud how they really feel about women the Republican women go into the voting booth and vote Democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/73 "2012-03-14T21:05:36Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > . . . In 40 years on the planet I’d never actually talked to the pro-life crowd. . . . I had a fascinating experience…quite a good many…um…decades ago… It was on a college campus, and there were two competing protests, pro-life and pro-choice. There was a lot of yelling, but no violence. I’m pro-choice… I got to chatting with a guy from the pro-life side. We spoke quietly, kept it civil, agreed from the outset that we weren’t going to change our minds, but that we just wanted to see if there was any kind of “meeting of minds” possible at all. What was eerie was that we attracted an audience. We became encircled by a small crowd, listening attentively to how we were engaging in (gasp) actual conversation. Then…some jackass shouted a slogan, and the crowd broke apart in mutual name-calling. The other guy looked at me, I looked at him, and, kind of sadly, we shrugged and backed away. We were willing to talk, even if we thought it was ultimately pointless, but the crowd around us wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/74 "2012-03-14T21:54:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > They get the rank and file all riled up, but never really do anything about it. How can you say they “never really do anything about it” when the entire topic of thread is about a horrible thing they’re doing about it? And we had this same thing last month with Virginia. And South Dakota’s legislature has run all the abortion providing medical doctors out of the state. > [@](#): > > Between 1995 and 2003, approximately 350 anti-choice measures were enacted, including statutes that protect pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions on moral or religious grounds.[25,26] In 2003, 10 states introduced 15 measures that would ban all or most abortions.[27,28] In 2004, Michigan enacted a ban on abortion.[29] The ban prevents physicians from performing most abortions, even in cases when a woman’s life or health is in danger (eg, a woman with diabetes or a heart condition). However, on June 14, 2005, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Center for Reproductive Rights, and the Planned Parenthood Federation of America sought to block the ban in federal court. The law has been enjoined pending the court’s decision. > > In the month of January 2005 alone, 15 states introduced 19 bills that would require counseling and waiting periods for abortion; and 12 states introduced 17 bills that would mandate parental involvement in minors’ abortions. Twenty-three states already have mandated waiting periods for women wishing to obtain an abortion,[30] augmenting patients’ exposure to anti-choice harassment and increasing the gestational age at which pregnancy termination occurs, thereby also enhancing the risk associated with the procedure.[31,32] [Obstacles to Abortion in the United States - Page 3](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507404_3) \<-----And that’s copyright 2005, it doesn’t even include the last 9 years of insanity. “Never really do anything about it?” Really?! They’re eroding access all over the place, and have been ever since Roe v Wade was put into effect. It’s not just starting now, it’s \*snowballing \*now. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/75 "2012-03-14T22:16:51Z")
By the way, **WhyNot** , you’ve been [anti-pitted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=645171) in MPSIMS in thanks for your contributions to this thread and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/76 "2012-03-14T22:37:42Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > In 40 years on the planet I’d never actually talked to the pro-life crowd. It was fascinating how quickly their arguments boiled down to two fundamentials, (1) babies are cute and (2) women shouldn’t be allowed free access to sex. I don’t know how typical they were of their ilk, but it certainly does seem consistent with the lawmakers’ positions. I’ve talked to a lot of pro-lifers over the years, and in my experience that’s pretty much it. I dislike the idea of abortion, and am very glad I’ve never had to make that decision. I would be pro-life except that so many pro-lifers I’ve talked to are also against birth control. A world without safe, reliable birth control scares the heck out of me, so my votes and my donations land solidly in pro-choice candidates and groups. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/77 "2012-03-14T22:41:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > We were willing to talk, even if we thought it was ultimately pointless, but the crowd around us wasn’t. That mindless rabble, interrupting your noble attempt to go halfway to a guy who thinks women are whores who must be punished for it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/78 "2012-03-14T23:00:55Z")
It’s worth noting that the flipside of this – conservative opposition to mandatory health insurance – is of questionable ideological sincerity. The idea came from the Heritage Foundation, and while of mixed reception through the 1990s was certainly not viewed as the heresy it now is. And while appeals to federalism to distinguish national insurance requirements from manifold state requirements are perfectly believable coming from someone like **Bricker** , they’re not very believable coming from your average member of the GOP base who is all about the war on drugs, banning gay marriage, banning assisted suicide, banning so-called “partial birth” abortion, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/79 "2012-03-15T00:30:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > On the other hand, doubleplus bonus points for non-ironic use of the word “hysteria” in an abortion thread. Well done. You sound a bit hysterical. Here, have a dildo. > [@biddee](#): > > Considering [this](http://www.advancedfertility.com/ultraso1.htm) is what a 5-6 week ultrasound looks like.. Isn’t that a cute little blob? Looks just like grandpa. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/80 "2012-03-15T01:21:07Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > That mindless rabble, interrupting your noble attempt to go halfway to a guy who thinks women are whores who must be punished for it. Um… Huh? Where, pray tell, do you get any of that? I don’t mind a reasonable interpolation, but nothing, whatever, of this is in any way true. At least try to make your straw men a little realistic, okay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672.md?page=5)