# Conservatives hate being forced to buy health insurance, but they're OK with mandating ultrasounds? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672 "2012-03-13T18:30:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/101 "2012-03-15T17:29:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > As one of the supporters of the Virginian bill said, they believe that women already stuck something up their vaginas, so one more thing (the ultrasound) wouldn’t matter. The despicable hatred for women in every syllable of that statement is shocking Cite? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/102 "2012-03-15T17:56:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? > [@](#): > > During the floor debate on Tuesday, Del. C. Todd Gilbert announced that “in the vast majority of these cases, these [abortions] are matters of lifestyle convenience.” (He has since apologized.) Virginia Democrat Del. David Englin, who opposes the bill, has said Gilbert’s statement “is in line with previous Republican comments on the issue,” recalling one conversation with a GOP lawmaker who told him that women had already made the decision to be “vaginally penetrated when they got pregnant.” (I confirmed with Englin that this quote was accurate.) From [here](http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/02/virginia_ultrasound_law_women_who_want_an_abortion_will_be_forcibly_penetrated_for_no_medical_reason.html#correction1). It seems to be a secondhand report. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/103 "2012-03-15T18:02:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hey, thanks for posting that. > > And GOD DAMN the Los Angeles Times for re-running some stupid series with Geoff Redfern and Zipper Harris lunching in the Student Union at Walden, instead of this. Just FUCK you guys, okay? Our local editor yanked it too. Mumbled something about abortion not being an appropriate topic for a cartoon. :smack: He went on to say that he’s tired of Garry Trudeau throwing these little hand grenades at him. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/104 "2012-03-15T18:33:39Z")
Cartoons and cartoon strips are not always funny. Doonesbury is put on the editorial pages of some papers, and there are times when that’s the most appropriate place for it. I notice that the Dallas Morning News is running the Slut arc, but the Fort Worth Star Telegram is running the alternate arc. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/105 "2012-03-15T18:43:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hey, thanks for posting that. > > And GOD DAMN the Los Angeles Times for re-running some stupid series with Geoff Redfern and Zipper Harris lunching in the Student Union at Walden, instead of this. Just FUCK you guys, okay? You know they put the series on the editorial page don’t you? I have been reading it there in dead tree version all week. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/106 "2012-03-15T21:25:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There are lots of pro-life organizations and I remember someone linking one here not too long ago that was explicitly feminist and pro-birth control. You cannot be pro-life and feminist. Pro-lifers want to force women through law to be unable to get abortions. I’ve yet to see a pro-lifer argue that abortions should be readily available but unnecessary. A truly feminist position against abortions would be to be pro-choice and simply convince women not to utilize abortion services. That’s how you be feminist and pro-life. Its so easily to illustrate this point with the famous Voltaire quote, though apparently it was [misattributed](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire#Attributed), that “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Flip that and it becomes “I disapprove of abortions, but I will defend to the death your right to have them.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/107 "2012-03-15T21:35:43Z")
> [@bup](#): > > You don’t say. I don’t know; he didn’t say. Hell, I had better luck communicating with a guy I disagreed with! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/108 "2012-03-16T04:09:18Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Hear, hear! > > No one on this planet should have the right to force women to take the risks that can come with pregnancy. For G-d’s sake, _especially_ while also barring them from coverage for the most effective form of birth control that exists. > > High blood pressure > Hypothyroidism > Cholestasis of Pregnancy (a common liver disease that only happens in pregnancy) > Hyperemesis Gravidarum > Hysterectomy > Molar Pregnancy > Placenta Accreta > Toxoplasmosis > Listeria (pregnant women are 20 times more likely to become infected than non-pregnant healthy adults) > Pelvic floor disorder > HELLP Syndrome (Hemolysis (breakdown of red blood cells), Elevated liver enzymes, Low platelets counts (platelets help the blood clot)) > Hyperemesis gravidarum > Temporary and permanent injury to back > Dropped (prolapsed) uterus > Pre-eclampsia > Eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death) > Gestational diabetes > Placenta previa > Anemia > Thrombocytopenic purpura > Embolism (blood clots - can lead to death - put my cousin in a coma, caused life-long disabilities and killed her full-term baby) > Diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles > Mitral valve stenosis > Ectopic pregnancy (risk of death) > Broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”) > Hemorrhage > Severe post-partum depression and psychosis > Coronary and cardiovascular disease > Magnesium toxicity > Severe hypoxemia/acidosis > Increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction > Malignant Arrhythmia > Circulatory collapse > Placental abruption > Obstetric fistula > Miscarriage > **Future infertility > Permanent disability > Heart attack > Stroke > Death** > > Seriously, who in the hell do these people think they are? > In 2011 alone, [92 laws restricting access for women were passed by state legislatures](http://www.womenarewatching.org/article/women-are-watching-on-anniversary-of-roe-) across the country. I’m sure you’ve seen that bumper sticker that says: Abortion stops a beating heart. When do you think there will be a bumper sticker that says: Pregnancy can stop a beating heart–the woman’s. ? Never mind. Not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/109 "2012-03-20T05:26:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I disapprove of abortions, but I will defend to the death your right to have them That… doesn’t make sense. The point of Voltaire’s quote was that speech doesn’t explicitly cause injury, whereas abortion once the foetus is conscious does. Of course, one could argue that there’s an analogue in that determining an adequate cut-off point for speech is inherently harmful, just as discovering one for a woman’s right to do what she wishes with her body is, but that’s by no means apparent. > [@](#): > > thus not deserving of the abortion. “You don’t even deserve to be aborted!”? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/110 "2012-03-20T15:28:51Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I disapprove of abortions, but I will defend to the death your right to have them > > That… doesn’t make sense. The point of Voltaire’s quote was that speech doesn’t explicitly cause injury, whereas abortion once the foetus is conscious does. Not a strict analog, just a useful paraphrase. Lots of people (myself included, though I didn’t make the quote above), are personally bothered by abortions, but think as part of a free society it is necessary to recognize that others have freedoms and to sometimes defend freedoms we don’t like. It’s wider than the point Voltaire made, but still useful phrasing. How’s your college logic class going, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/111 "2012-03-20T19:00:49Z")
Tiny nitpick: No actual evidence that Voltaire was actually responsible for[that quote](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall). ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/112 "2012-03-20T19:43:03Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > That… doesn’t make sense. Nonsense! Was it not Socrates who said “The unexamined fetus is not worth living” Or René Descartes who famously opined non cogita, ergo abortio “It doesn’t think therefore I abort" Well perhaps then you’ve heard of a guy named Friedrich Nietzsche who said “God is dead! He remains dead! And you have killed him with your wonton sluttiness” Remember folks, your right to swing your transvaginal probe ends at my vagina (were I to have one). ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/113 "2012-03-20T20:54:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Well perhaps then you’ve heard of a guy named Friedrich Nietzsche who said “God is dead! He remains dead! And you have killed him with your wonton sluttiness” What exactly is wonton sluttiness? Are they doing it in the soup? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/114 "2012-03-20T21:12:00Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Not a strict analog, just a useful paraphrase. > > Lots of people (myself included, though I didn’t make the quote above), are personally bothered by abortions, but think as part of a free society it is necessary to recognize that others have freedoms and to sometimes defend freedoms we don’t like. Right, but you can see why it’s a poor analogy to the debate, yes? “If you don’t like robbery, then don’t rob anyone! But don’t tell me what to do with my life!” We have laws against robbery because we wish to protect the victims of robbery, not because we wish to control the lives of would-be robbers. The abortion debate hinges on one side’s belief that the unborn fetus is a human being and deserves the protection of the law, and the other side’s belief that this is not the case. You cannot usefully argue against this split by declaring that you defend abortion as a matter of freedom, because the other side believes the freedom you’re discussing is the freedom to end the life of a human being. THAT is the disagreement that must be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/115 "2012-03-20T21:23:38Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > What exactly is wonton sluttiness? Are they doing it in the soup? Ah spelling mistakes. You dim sum, you lose some. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/116 "2012-03-20T21:24:41Z")
> [@](#): > > think as part of a free society it is necessary to recognize that others have freedoms and to sometimes defend freedoms we don’t like. As far as I’m aware, the existence of society is to facilitate the greater good for all participants. One can hold that limiting freedoms (such as freedom of movement or speech) will entail greater damages to society than permitting them, but the point isn’t to uphold something damaging to society, it’s to prevent greater damage to society by eliminating the possibility for freedoms to be curtailed. I think it’d be incredibly short-sighted to stand up for a freedom that harms society (or to use another phrase, that one disagrees with), if not within the context that proscribing the freedom will lead to greater harm to society. In fact, without that in mind, what is an adequate determinant for what freedoms people should not be able to enjoy? I won’t pull a slippery slope, but as someone with roughly Utilitarian principles, it seems like that position would be a roughly anarchist/normative moral relativistic one. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/117 "2012-03-20T21:27:14Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Ah spelling mistakes. You dim sum, you lose some. This thread is quickly deteriorating…I’m going for a wok. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/118 "2012-03-20T21:49:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right, but you can see why it’s a poor analogy to the debate, yes? > > “If you don’t like robbery, then don’t rob anyone! But don’t tell me what to do with my life!” Yeah, I get that. Like I said, I didn’t take it as an actual analogy, just a borrowing of phrase. > [@](#): > > We have laws against robbery because we wish to protect the victims of robbery, not because we wish to control the lives of would-be robbers. [tangent]Fully agree. I think ideally law should be amoral. Lots of lawyers I’ve talked with, though, don’t see that. [/tangent] > [@](#): > > The abortion debate hinges on one side’s belief that the unborn fetus is a human being and deserves the protection of the law, and the other side’s belief that this is not the case. You cannot usefully argue against this split by declaring that you defend abortion as a matter of freedom, because the other side believes the freedom you’re discussing is the freedom to end the life of a human being. THAT is the disagreement that must be addressed. Yeah, I get that. I tried to highlight that upthread, in fact. All I got, though, was the observation that if anyone thinks a first trimester fetus is a human, they are stupid beyond belief. I guess I must concede it’s not even a good borrowing of phrase, then. I’ll throw this out, though: if you really want to end abortion, and your desire to end abortion is stronger than your desire to punish people who perform them, or undergo them, give single moms economically viable alternatives. Outlawing abortion doesn’t end it. [Not at all.](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/news/12iht-12abortion.7863868.html)It’s easy to pretend abortion goes away, but it doesn’t. Goes on at the same rate. What does severely decrease abortion is providing jobs for single moms. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/119 "2012-03-20T21:57:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You know they put the series on the editorial page don’t you? I have been reading it there in dead tree version all week. Of the L.A. Times? No, I did not know that. I wouldn’t have known about the switcheroo in the funny pages if someone hadn’t left a copy out in the lunchroom at work. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672/120 "2012-03-20T22:08:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The abortion debate hinges on one side’s belief that the unborn fetus is a human being and deserves the protection of the law, and the other side’s belief that this is not the case. You cannot usefully argue against this split by declaring that you defend abortion as a matter of freedom, because the other side believes the freedom you’re discussing is the freedom to end the life of a human being. THAT is the disagreement that must be addressed. I used to think this. Recently I’m starting to wonder if **Der Trihs** wasn’t right all along, and the abortion debate actually hinges on one side’s belief that women are sluts and prostitutes if they choose to have recreational sex and should be punished with public humiliation, invasive and embarrassing state mandated sexual assault by medical professionals and unwanted children if they accidentally get pregnant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-hate-being-forced-to-buy-health-insurance-but-theyre-ok-with-mandating-ultrasounds/615672.md?page=7)