# Conservatives labelling dissenters as "Unamerican"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 13, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825 "2002-07-13T20:51:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Apache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apache)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/41 "2002-07-14T22:27:56Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Brutus \*
> \*\*Hrmmm…Perhaps **KellyM** is being sarcastic as well. \*\*
I was really hoping she was.:smack:
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### Author:  [@taggert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taggert)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/42 "2002-07-14T22:43:31Z")
No, I am not being sarcastic. Look up the word dissenter. It means dissent for heaven’s sake! Dissent from a norm is necessarily implied. I’ll tell you what the norm is, Americanism! With us or against us, damnit. Against is by definition, un-American.
As for what is a commie liberal, that is a fair question deserving of a fair answer. A commie is someone who wants to share the wealth, yours and mine. A liberal is the same thing, they want national health care so that someone else will pay for their care so they can be welfare queens. Liberal and commie are diametrically opposed, they are the same thing.
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### Author:  [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/43 "2002-07-14T23:10:10Z")
Personally, I define unamerican as someone who violates the constitution, or advocates the violation and diregard of the constitution. This does not include those who vocally disagree with the constitution and advocate changing it with the methods provided in the constitution to change it.
Our founding fathers disagreed with one another quite vocally. I don’t see them as unamerican.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/44 "2002-07-15T01:38:35Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by KellyM \*
> \*\*Calling a spade a spade is not suppressing speech. Calling a spade a dildo is, when talking about dildos is illegal or at least highly disfavored. \*\*
Are you drunk or something?
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/45 "2002-07-15T02:51:04Z")
Last call for any specifics to the OP complaint…last call…
See, I haven’t been watching the talking heads lately, and for all I know the entire Republican leadership and conservative commentators have been appearing en masse on TV to denounce any hint of opposition as being traitorous and subject to shackling, gagging and imprisonment in a small country with bad cellphone service.
Or else this rant is based on nothing more than a bag of hot air which you are all batting around like a beach ball at a baseball game.
Which is it?
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### Author:  [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/46 "2002-07-15T03:19:06Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by taggert \*
> \*\*No, I am not being sarcastic. Look up the word dissenter. It means dissent for heaven’s sake! Dissent from a norm is necessarily implied. I’ll tell you what the norm is, Americanism! With us or against us, damnit. Against is by definition, un-American. \*\*
Not sure I believe you about the “not being sarcastic” part, but I’ll assume you’re being serious.
Define “Americanism.” By my definition, dissent is an integral part of being American. Accordingly, those who never dissent are the ones who should be run out of the country on a rail.
> [@](#):
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> _by Brutus_
> Why should the President give a serious listen to ‘those critics’? We elect a President, not a panel of critics. My vote for leader of America went to G.W.Bush, not an editorial at NYT or T.Daschle.
>
> The President must do what he feels is right, necessary, and constitutional. If the critics don’t like it, they can always not vote for him next time.
So, **Brutus,** exactly when does any human being learn all the correct answers to every question?
I would suggest that the very definition of an intelligent person is one who is willing to entertain criticism of his/her opinions and beliefs, in the recognition that no one is perfect.
Sua
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### Author:  [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/47 "2002-07-15T06:18:53Z")
> [@](#):
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> Why should the President give a serious listen to ‘those critics’? We elect a President, not a panel of critics. My vote for leader of America went to G.W.Bush, not an editorial at NYT or T.Daschle.
It should be noted that you did vote against Daschle. I’m guessing you voted for Spence Abraham in 2000, who lost to Stabenow, who is one of the 51 Senators who voted for Daschle for Senate Majority Leader. Whenever we are voting for our congresspeople we’re also voting for who the legislative leaders are, so to group Daschle in with an unelected entity such as the NYT editorial board isn’t merited.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/48 "2002-07-15T07:26:43Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Big Kahuna Burger \*
> \*\*
>
> It should be noted that you did vote against Daschle. I’m guessing you voted for Spence Abraham in 2000, who lost to Stabenow, who is one of the 51 Senators who voted for Daschle for Senate Majority Leader. Whenever we are voting for our congresspeople we’re also voting for who the legislative leaders are, so to group Daschle in with an unelected entity such as the NYT editorial board isn’t merited. \*\*
That is rather far-fetched…
The point is, the President _does_ have a broad array of opinions available to him without listening to every damn self-proclaimed expert. He has his Cabinet, which itself is the tip of an informational-iceberg.
Want to know what to do about the war in Fantasia? Defense and State would be the major voices, but also perhaps Commerce and other depts. would weigh in with any needed information. The experts would flex their expertise, in other words.
Nobody is denying the right of Daschle, NYT, Nader, whoever, to grandstand and criticise President Bush. But to suggest that the President has some obligation to give them all equal-time is assinine.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/49 "2002-07-15T10:37:16Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by taggert \*
> \*\*
> As for what is a commie liberal, that is a fair question deserving of a fair answer. A commie is someone who wants to share the wealth, yours and mine. A liberal is the same thing, they want national health care so that someone else will pay for their care so they can be welfare queens. Liberal and commie are diametrically opposed, they are the same thing. \*\*
Little off the main topic, but why the hell is “Universal Healthcare” touted as an Evil Commie Leftist Liberal Plot? I live in a country now which has socialized medicine. Ya know what? Hell, it’s pretty damn good. Cheap, decent healthcare, and I don’t have to worry if I fall of a tree and break my leg. I ain’t gonna break myself because I’m not a full-time employee and not covered by American health insurance at the moment. And guess what? If I want better health care, I can always go to the private hospital and pay for it. For me, it’s worth paying 40% in taxes for that peace of mind. Why is American society so friggin self-centered. Anybody down on their luck or out of a job must be “a welfare queen.” Statistics show that a majority of welfare recipients are on welfare for less than 2 years. 'Course, I also believe part of the mark of an advanced society is to have a basic human standard of living. Look at the Scandinavian nations for example. Course, that line of thinking makes me a commie. I just thought it made me a humanitarian.
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### Author:  [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/50 "2002-07-15T12:41:37Z")
> [@](#):
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> Liberal and commie are diametrically opposed, they are the same thing.
Yogi Berra, ladies and gentlemen.
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### Author:  [@Apache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apache)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/51 "2002-07-15T12:56:24Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by RTA \*
> \*\*
>
> Yogi Berra, ladies and gentlemen. \*\*
How about a simple typo?
Insert the word “NOT” and see what happens.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/52 "2002-07-15T14:50:53Z")
> [@](#):
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> **Taggert** : As for what is a commie liberal, that is a fair question deserving of a fair answer. A commie is someone who wants to share the wealth, yours and mine. A liberal is the same thing, they want national health care so that someone else will pay for their care so they can be welfare queens. Liberal and commie are diametrically opposed, they are the same thing.
>
> **lee** : Personally, I define unamerican as someone who violates the constitution, or advocates the violation and diregard of the constitution. This does not include those who vocally disagree with the constitution and advocate changing it with the methods provided in the constitution to change it.
>
> Our founding fathers disagreed with one another quite vocally. I don’t see them as unamerican.
Since I agree with **lee** ’s definition, and since it has not been made illegal to advocate national health care, it therefore follows that **taggert** is unamerican. Right?
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### Author:  [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/53 "2002-07-15T15:17:13Z")
[How to tell if you’re a Real American](http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/07/01/tomo/story.jpg).
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/54 "2002-07-15T17:07:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Nobody is denying the right of Daschle, NYT, Nader, whoever, to grandstand and criticise President Bush. But to suggest that the President has some obligation to give them all equal-time is assinine.
But the point of the OP is simply that it’s assinine to call someone who disagrees with Admin. policy “un-American” or “un-patriotic”.
> [@](#):
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> Liberal and commie are [not?] diametrically opposed, they are the same thing.
A commie is someone who advocates dismantling the entire capitalist system and forcible re-distributing _all_ wealth, usually at the hands of a dictatorial government which stifles dissent.
A liberal is someone who is willing to challenge prevailing auumptions. They don’t go remotely as far on the first point above and absolutely abhor the second. It’s just that liberals have been known to challenge prevailing assumptions embracing current inequalities in wealth, etc. But a true liberal would be willing to challenge the challenge.
BTW, a left-winger is someone who advocates policies designed to remedy perceived past injustices. Liberalism can lead to leftism, but they’re not the same thing. For example, it’s liberal to be against racism, but left-wing to support affirmative action. To stay liberal and avoid making a left turn, embrace color-blindness.
Liberals dissent from other liberals all the time, and this brings us back to the OP in that dissent is an important part of Americanism. The Founding Fathers were liberals so if you’re not a liberal, you’re un-American. (Yes, I’m being sarcastic. And Jesus was a liberal, so if you’re not a liberal, you’re un-Christian.)
Finally:
**KellyM** said:
> [@](#):
>
> the Republicans are racist, sexist, homophobic, and **mean-spirited**.
Then **Taggert** said:
> [@](#):
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> A commie is someone who wants to share the wealth, yours and mine. A liberal is the same thing, they want national health care so that someone else will pay for their care so they can be welfare queens.
:rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/55 "2002-07-15T17:51:54Z")
Actually, the founding fathers _were_, in their own day, liberals. No question about it.
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### Author:  [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/56 "2002-07-15T18:19:45Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by pulykamell \*
> \*\* 'Course, I also believe part of the mark of an advanced society is to have a basic human standard of living. Look at the Scandinavian nations for example. \*\*
Yeah, but the Scandinavian nations are un-American!
Don’t get me started on those freakin’ Canadians either. They’re not real Americans, either.
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### Author:  [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/57 "2002-07-15T18:21:15Z")
> [@](#):
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> Nobody is denying the right of Daschle, NYT, Nader, whoever, to grandstand and criticise President Bush. But to suggest that the President has some obligation to give them all equal-time is assinine.
I wasn’t saying that, merely that by juxtaposing Daschle with the NYT editorial board you minimalize his position.
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### Author:  [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/58 "2002-07-15T19:19:41Z")
name calling is a standard propaganda technique. morons want to manipulate people they regard as dumber than themselves.
actually i’m proud of being un-American. it means i’m too smart to be a Bush supporter. has he found out there are black people in Brazil yet?
Franklin and Jefferson were accused of being atheists, doesn’t that make them un-American?
Dal Timgar
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### Author:  [@taggert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taggert)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2002, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/59 "2002-07-16T03:46:51Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Polycarp \*
> \*\*
>
> Since I agree with **lee** ’s definition, and since it has not been made illegal to advocate national health care, it therefore follows that **taggert** is unamerican. Right? \*\*
Well, folks can think anything they want, can’t they? But your personal opinion does not make me un-American. I am a true patriot, an American that believes in his heart that Ronald Reagan single-handedly won the cold war by demanding “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.” I support the right and obligation of every American to carry a concealed weapon to reduce crime, the right to denounce liberals as the communist scum they are and the right of Americans to engage in business all over the world. I think that makes me a good and patriotic American. If you don’t, keep it to yourself, huh? I didn’t insult your manhood.
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2002, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-labelling-dissenters-as-unamerican/118825/60 "2002-07-16T13:01:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by KellyM \*
> \*\*[How to tell if you’re a Real American](http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/07/01/tomo/story.jpg). \*\*
Oh, puh-_leeze._ Tom Tomorrow is the Jack Chick of the PC Left.
Lower below the belt than that I cannot hit …
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