# Conservatives on immigration are the most vicious people on earth **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828 "2017-04-20T08:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/81 "2017-04-21T20:19:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Is using the word “criminal” as a noun forbidden as well? No, but it is ambiguous. If you were to refer to persons of unknown provenance as criminals, how would you distinguish them from the speeders, the jaywalkers, and unregistered solicitors? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/82 "2017-04-21T20:57:40Z")
Reminds me of the old joke - “Is he a criminal lawyer?” “Yes, very.” Don’t forget to tip your lawn service. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/83 "2017-04-21T21:00:27Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Then you’re wrong. Whether or not something is a slur is determined by how the people targeted by it generally feel. It’s not up to you. > [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? Well, here one should not ignore history: > **[Why ‘illegal immigrant’ is a slur | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants/)** > > The term “illegal immigrant” is inaccurate and biased, and may even increase hate crimes against Latinos, says Charles Garcia > [@](#): > > Why ‘illegal immigrant’ is a slur > > By Charles Garcia, Special to CNN > Fri July 6, 2012 > [@](#): > > Last month’s Supreme Court decision in the landmark Arizona immigration case was groundbreaking for what it omitted: the words “illegal immigrants” and “illegal aliens,” except when quoting other sources. The court’s nonjudgmental language established a humanistic approach to our current restructuring of immigration policy. > > When you label someone an “illegal alien” or “illegal immigrant” or just plain “illegal,” you are effectively saying the individual, as opposed to the actions the person has taken, is unlawful. The terms imply the very existence of an unauthorized migrant in America is criminal. > > In this country, there is still a presumption of innocence that requires a jury to convict someone of a crime. If you don’t pay your taxes, are you an illegal? What if you get a speeding ticket? A murder conviction? No. You’re still not an illegal. Even alleged terrorists and child molesters aren’t labeled illegals. > > By becoming judge, jury and executioner, you dehumanize the individual and generate animosity toward them. New York Times editorial writer Lawrence Downes says “illegal” is often “a code word for racial and ethnic hatred.” > > The term “illegal immigrant” was first used in 1939 as a slur by the British toward Jews who were fleeing the Nazis and entering Palestine without authorization. Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel aptly said that “no human being is illegal.” Of course, the article points also that most of the usage in news was in favor of using the term thanks to the AP Stylebook, that so that opinion I cited looked like it was just that, \*\*but from 2013 onwards: \*\* > **[AP changes style on 'illegal immigrant' - Poynter](https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2013/ap-changes-style-on-illegal-immigrant/)** > > From person-to-person coaching and intensive hands-on seminars to interactive online courses and media reporting, Poynter helps journalists sharpen skills and elevate storytelling throughout their careers. > [@](#): > > AP changes style on ‘illegal immigrant’ > > The Associated Press is changing its Stylebook entry on the term “illegal immigrant,” the news cooperative announced Tuesday. The new entry reads in part: > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* illegal immigration\*\* Entering or residing in a country in violation of civil or criminal law. Except in direct quotes essential to the story, use illegal only to refer to an action, not a person: illegal immigration, but not illegal immigrant. Acceptable variations include living in or entering a country illegally or without legal permission. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/84 "2017-04-21T21:12:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, but it is ambiguous. If you were to refer to persons of unknown provenance as criminals, how would you distinguish them from the speeders, the jaywalkers, and unregistered solicitors? It’s also inaccurate, inasmuch as approximately half of undocumented immigrants have committed no crime. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/85 "2017-04-21T21:23:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That, or YouTube commenters are the most vicious people on earth. After all these years of the internet, chat rooms, message boards, comment sections, etc I still fail to understand why anonymity motivates or somehow “empowers” many people to act out in a way they never otherwise would. I can’t stand it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/86 "2017-04-21T21:25:16Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It’s also inaccurate, inasmuch as approximately half of undocumented immigrants have committed no crime. Well, technically and eventually the authorities can show that someone did break the rules and overstayed his/her visa for example. But, the key here is that since there is **supposed** to be a presumption of innocence by law then the main point is that calling someone an illegal is actually demanding that we should drop that presumption when talking about individuals that many can encounter in America. (And I have seen or read about cases of Hispanics or Asians being accused in public of being illegal -when they are legal residents or even citizens- in an attempt to get others to also forget about the law and to follow their vicious example.) ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/87 "2017-04-21T21:38:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, technically and eventually the authorities can show that someone did break the rules and overstayed his/her visa for example. But that’s not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/88 "2017-04-21T21:45:34Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > But that’s not a crime. Yes, but it remains a civil violation. In any case, I do agree mostly with you. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/89 "2017-04-21T21:49:00Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > After all these years of the internet, chat rooms, message boards, comment sections, etc I still fail to understand why anonymity motivates or somehow “empowers” many people to act out in a way they never otherwise would. [Shitcock](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/325/699/4fc.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/90 "2017-04-21T22:25:58Z")
At least they are protecting the northern border from those damned snowbacks [looking to steal American web comic jobs](http://file770.com/?p=34547). ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Lucky\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_Mike)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/91 "2017-04-21T22:44:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Indeed, of course here I have to say that a very conservative and wealthy Hispanic relative of mine is a Republican, but even he told me that he truly disliked how the Republicans were going after the Dreamers. > > Seems that he voted for Trump expecting that he would not be as bad as the Democrats painted him. > > He is not bound to do that mistake again. I am sorry to offend your relative, but the Democrats did not paint Trump, he freaking painted himself. Anyone who could vote for a man who literally said the deplorable things he was accused of and think that someone else made that up about him is a deluded idiot. I actually respect the people who say “I know Trump was a deluded moron, but I wanted Republicans in control because I wanted a Supreme Court Justice who was like Scalia”. I respect them, I think they are narrow minded and wrong but at least I respect them. They are willing to do harm to others, put our country at risk and cause damage to our institutions in order to advance their agenda. They are not unique in that regard, but at least they are genuine. Any person who says to me “I did not realize this about Trump” needs to be called out for what they are, a complete imbecile. An infant with voting privileges. The fact that he realized his mistake only makes him an infant who realizes that a stove is hot when they touch it. A moron like that though will still touch a heater, or dip their hand into boiling water, and then act just as surprised at the result. Your relative may not vote for Trump again, but if what you say is true, I guarantee he will vote for the next schill. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/92 "2017-04-21T22:49:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, here one should not ignore history: > > [http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants/](http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants/) > > Of course, the article points also that most of the usage in news was in favor of using the term thanks to the AP Stylebook, that so that opinion I cited looked like it was just that, \*\*but from 2013 onwards: > \*\* > [AP changes style on 'illegal immigrant' - Poynter](https://www.poynter.org/2013/ap-changes-style-on-illegal-immigrant/209045/) So the cite for the claim that it’s a slur is the AP Stylebook? What if I don’t concede the power of the AP Stylebook to define slurs for the world? Or Charles Garcia’s power in that regard? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/93 "2017-04-21T23:00:55Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > It really doesn’t matter because any “acceptable” term will, over time and through usage, _become_ a slur, or at least be regarded as one. Sure. The US Census ennumerated “colored people,” up until 1900. But that term began to fall out of favor over the next twenty to thirty years; the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is not an organization biased against African-Americans, but no one today would think “colored person,” is an acceptable phrase to use. No, Negro was the enlightened term. Until it wasn’t. In 1963, Dr. King’s speech referred to his own race as Negro, but a decade later, that was insensitive; black was . . . er. . . the new black. And then that, in turn, while not offensive (yet) has been replaced by African-American. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/94 "2017-04-21T23:10:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. > > The US Census ennumerated “colored people,” up until 1900. But that term began to fall out of favor over the next twenty to thirty years; the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is not an organization biased against African-Americans, but no one today would think “colored person,” is an acceptable phrase to use. > > No, Negro was the enlightened term. > > Until it wasn’t. > > In 1963, Dr. King’s speech referred to his own race as Negro, but a decade later, that was insensitive; black was . . . er. . . the new black. > > And then that, in turn, while not offensive (yet) has been replaced by African-American. It’s almost as if, no matter how we label people, some will take up that term to use in a denigrating fashion. It’s not the oppressed’s fault that we can’t have nice words. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Lucky\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky_Mike)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/95 "2017-04-21T23:10:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. > > The US Census ennumerated “colored people,” up until 1900. But that term began to fall out of favor over the next twenty to thirty years; the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is not an organization biased against African-Americans, but no one today would think “colored person,” is an acceptable phrase to use. > > No, Negro was the enlightened term. > > Until it wasn’t. > > In 1963, Dr. King’s speech referred to his own race as Negro, but a decade later, that was insensitive; black was . . . er. . . the new black. > > And then that, in turn, while not offensive (yet) has been replaced by African-American. To add now, the term “people of color” is being pushed around. I felt terrible in a meeting for a very nice older woman I supervised who did not have a hateful bone in her body. She was talking about the effects of race on something and she said something to the effect of “we see that black americans have a greater number of…”, someone piped up and said “people of color”. She stopped and said “excuse me?”. The response, “They are people of color”. She said, “Oh I apologize, colored people are…” The person then erupted into a storm of anger. Woman presenting cried, I called an end to the meeting. There were calls for her to be fired or disciplined and all she could do in my office was sob saying “she told me to call them colored people”. I said “no, she said people of color” and she replied “what is the difference?”. I smiled, explained to her how words evolve over time and that context and meaning change with the interpretations of others. She was mortified that she had done something racist and I told her she had done nothing of the sort. I eventually brokered a peace deal, but words are weird man. They change with the time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/96 "2017-04-21T23:21:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So the cite for the claim that it’s a slur is the AP Stylebook? > > What if I don’t concede the power of the AP Stylebook to define slurs for the world? Or Charles Garcia’s power in that regard? Interesting that you willfully ignored what Lawrence Downes said and that the Jews were not amused when they were subjected to that. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/97 "2017-04-21T23:23:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > “unauthorized immigrant”. Thanks, I have no issue with using this descriptor if it’s preferred. I think it sounds more clunky but that’s most likely to do with familiarity. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/98 "2017-04-21T23:26:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And then that, in turn, while not offensive (yet) has been replaced by African-American. I seem to remember a story, but no cite or details, about a Caucasian woman from South Africa who, when she came to the US, referred to herself as an “African American” and got slapped down for it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/99 "2017-04-21T23:29:57Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I seem to remember a story, but no cite or details, about a Caucasian woman from South Africa who, when she came to the US, referred to herself as an “African American” and got slapped down for it. Indeed she should have. It’s “South African America”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/100 "2017-04-21T23:36:00Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > It’s also inaccurate, inasmuch as approximately half of undocumented immigrants have committed no crime. Can you explain your reasoning? I mean, obviously the mere fact that a legal immigrant overstays a visa is not a crime. But I’m curious how those individuals are supporting themselves. Are they working? If so, are they working pursuant to a work authorization granted pursuant to an 8 C.F.R. § 274a.12(c)(14) deferred action policy? Or are they working without that type of permission? I ask because a person who is merely in civil violation of immigration regulations by overstaying their visa is nonetheless committing a criminal act if they use false identification to obtain employment, or if they harbor or conceal other illegal immigrants, they are guilty of criminal offenses. So I don’t quite understand the level of confidence that leads you to claim roughly half have committed no crime. Can you explain? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828.md?page=6)