# Conservatives on immigration are the most vicious people on earth **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828 "2017-04-20T08:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/101 "2017-04-21T23:36:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So the cite for the claim that it’s a slur is the AP Stylebook? > > What if I don’t concede the power of the AP Stylebook to define slurs for the world? Or Charles Garcia’s power in that regard? The fact that it has made it to a style guide of all places shows that there are enough people who find something offensive that you cannot say the word without those people being offended. And that’s what a slur is. It doesn’t matter who says it. The fact that a substantial part of the population finds it offensive means you should avoid using it unless you want them to be offended. And, since you know they will be offended, they have every right to assume you intended to offend. This is different from some old lady who didn’t know which words to use. The point is, when corrected, she immediately tried to use a better term. She didn’t get all upset and act like it was all about her and how dare anyone get upset that she said that word or think she was racist. If something as big as the AP Style book tells you that something is offensive, you should listen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/102 "2017-04-21T23:49:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Interesting that you willfully ignored what Lawrence Downes said and that the Jews were not amused when they were subjected to that. I didn’t willfully ignore; I simply failed to make explicit that my riposte to Lawrence Downes’ commentary does not materially differ from my earlier comment with respect to Charles Garcia: in what way does Lawrence Downes claim authority in this regard? And I’m sure that the Jews were discomfited at the appellation. So what? At the time, British Palestine was a entity that had legal existence, validated by the League of Nations, no less, and had every right to control entry into its borders. Jews fleeing Nazi persecution were still illegal immigrants. That’s not a moral judgement: it’s a legal claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/103 "2017-04-21T23:51:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If something as big as the AP Style book tells you that something is offensive, you should listen. If I were on fire and you advised me as to the location of the nearest lake, **BigT** , I’m fairly certain I’d run in the opposite direction. That’s how much I treasure your trenchant insight in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/104 "2017-04-22T00:01:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, the article points also that most of the usage in news was in favor of using the term thanks to the AP Stylebook, that so that opinion I cited looked like it was just that, \*\*but from 2013 onwards: > \*\* > [AP changes style on 'illegal immigrant' - Poynter](https://www.poynter.org/2013/ap-changes-style-on-illegal-immigrant/209045/) According to [this](http://archives.cjr.org/united_states_project/illegal_immigrant_or_undocumented.php), Reuters and The Wall Street Journal style guidelines have retained the phrase “illegal immigrant.” Inasmuch as Reuters style points weigh 52.5 stylons, and WSJ points weigh 77.5, this clearly and measurably outweighs the AP style guide’s 92.2 stylon weight. Unless there are no such things as stylons. And thus no way to definitively claim one style guide is authoritative. But surely that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/105 "2017-04-22T00:26:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I didn’t willfully ignore; I simply failed to make explicit that my riposte to Lawrence Downes’ commentary does not materially differ from my earlier comment with respect to Charles Garcia: in what way does Lawrence Downes claim authority in this regard? > > And I’m sure that the Jews were discomfited at the appellation. So what? At the time, British Palestine was a entity that had legal existence, validated by the League of Nations, no less, and had every right to control entry into its borders. Jews fleeing Nazi persecution were still illegal immigrants. That’s not a moral judgement: it’s a legal claim. Not my claim either, I was indeed talking about the reality that they took offense to it. Remember: this side issue here originated by you asking for a cite about a poster saying that “Whether or not something is a slur is determined by how the people targeted by it generally feel. It’s not up to you.” The AP has reacted to what groups from the Hispanic media organizations told them, and I have seen reports that a plurality of Hispanics do indeed see that as insulting too. So, as I see it, the point from **Beren Erchamion** stands. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/106 "2017-04-22T00:40:49Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I seem to remember a story, but no cite or details, about a Caucasian woman from South Africa who, when she came to the US, referred to herself as an “African American” and got slapped down for it. There was a reversal of this for comic effect on Saturday Night Live where Tracy Morgan demanded that Charlize Theron refer to herself as an African-American. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/107 "2017-04-22T00:48:45Z")
> [@Lucky\_Mike](#): > > I am sorry to offend your relative, but the Democrats did not paint Trump, he freaking painted himself. Anyone who could vote for a man who literally said the deplorable things he was accused of and think that someone else made that up about him is a deluded idiot. > > I actually respect the people who say “I know Trump was a deluded moron, but I wanted Republicans in control because I wanted a Supreme Court Justice who was like Scalia”. I respect them, I think they are narrow minded and wrong but at least I respect them. They are willing to do harm to others, put our country at risk and cause damage to our institutions in order to advance their agenda. They are not unique in that regard, but at least they are genuine. > > Any person who says to me “I did not realize this about Trump” needs to be called out for what they are, a complete imbecile. An infant with voting privileges. > > The fact that he realized his mistake only makes him an infant who realizes that a stove is hot when they touch it. A moron like that though will still touch a heater, or dip their hand into boiling water, and then act just as surprised at the result. > > Your relative may not vote for Trump again, but if what you say is true, I guarantee he will vote for the next schill. No problem, BTW I did not explain properly but when I said “how the democrats painted him” I was referring to what my relative thought about Trump. Of course he was bananas. In any case it is not likely that another schill will come on 2020, it is more likely that Trump will seek reelection… … Regardless if he would be under more investigations than Nixon. I already did said elsewhere that incumbency is such a big factor that Trump may also be reelected, but just like Nixon, a straw will eventually come that will break the camels back and he will not only be impeached but removed from office, the only issue is if the Republicans will be wise enough to realize on time the big mistake they made by getting into bed with him or if they will continue to chain themselves to the sinking ship. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/108 "2017-04-22T01:18:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not my claim either, I was indeed talking about the reality that they took offense to it. > > Remember: this side issue here originated by you asking for a cite about a poster saying that “Whether or not something is a slur is determined by how the people targeted by it generally feel. It’s not up to you.” > > The AP has reacted to what groups from the Hispanic media organizations told them, and I have seen reports that a plurality of Hispanics do indeed see that as insulting too. So, as I see it, the point from **Beren Erchamion** stands. The portion of his claim that I quoted and asked for a supporting cite was: “Whether or not something is a slur is determined by how the people targeted by it generally feel.” I disagree with that claim. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/109 "2017-04-22T01:34:38Z")
Well, the dictionary defines “slur” as " an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo". It would therefore seem that a term would qualify if intended _or_ perceived as such. Universal agreement is not required. Nor is agreement by Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/110 "2017-04-22T01:37:22Z")
There is an indefinable turning point when a word or phrase used to describe a group of people changes from everyday language to offensive slur. Illegal immigrant is somewhere right on the cusp of that point if not past it. Using “illegal” as a noun has long passed that point. In the past the terms oriental, colored, and tranny were everyday words used with no malice to describe asian, black and transexual people. Each reached a point where the word was taken over by people using it in a pejorative way and eventually it crossed that indefinable tipping point where it was no longer acceptable to use by decent people. Rather than rehash all the arguments about illegal immigrant as being such a term I’ll just repost some links from another thread. > [@Deported Immigrants, and income earned while in the US](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deported-immigrants-and-income-earned-while-in-the-us/782529/31): > > [Should I Use the Term “Illegal Immigrant”?](http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/should-i-use-the-term-illegal-immigrant) > > [Why ‘illegal immigrant’ is a slur](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/05/opinion/garcia-illegal-immigrants/) > > [‘No human being is illegal’: linguists argue against mislabeling of immigrants](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/06/illegal-immigrant-label-offensive-wrong-activists-say) > > [The Dehumanizing History Of The Words We’ve Used To Describe Immigrants](https://thinkprogress.org/the-dehumanizing-history-of-the-words-weve-used-to-describe-immigrants-18dd39c90459#.rrkbhrxf3) > > [Immigration Debate: The Problem with the Word Illegal](http://ideas.time.com/2012/09/21/immigration-debate-the-problem-with-the-word-illegal/) > > [The battle over the words used to describe migrants](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34061097) > > [‘Illegals’](https://keller.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/llegals/) > > The bottom line is the term is considered pejorative to those it applies to and many others and that is reason enough to consider it so. Especially once people started doing the tell-tale shortening of the term from ‘illegal immigrants’ to ‘illegals’. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/111 "2017-04-22T02:41:57Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > There is an indefinable turning point when a word or phrase used to describe a group of people changes from everyday language to offensive slur. Illegal immigrant is somewhere right on the cusp of that point if not past it. Using “illegal” as a noun has long passed that point. > > In the past the terms oriental, colored, and tranny were everyday words used with no malice to describe asian, black and transexual people. Each reached a point where the word was taken over by people using it in a pejorative way and eventually it crossed that indefinable tipping point where it was no longer acceptable to use by decent people. > > Rather than rehash all the arguments about illegal immigrant as being such a term I’ll just repost some links from another thread. It’s ridiculous that colored and oriental are considered offensive. Tranny I can see as not being very polite. Regardless, context is key. Illegal immigrant and immigration accurately describe the folks and act. If I were violating another nation’s immigration policy I’d have no issue with people referring to me accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/112 "2017-04-22T02:52:57Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Well, the dictionary defines “slur” as " an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo". > > It would therefore seem that a term would qualify if intended _or_ perceived as such. > > Universal agreement is not required. > > Nor is agreement by Bricker. I perceive your dismissal of the necessity of my agreement as both insulting and disparaging. Is it a slur now? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/113 "2017-04-22T02:55:12Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > There is an indefinable turning point when a word or phrase used to describe a group of people changes from everyday language to offensive slur. Illegal immigrant is somewhere right on the cusp of that point if not past it. Using “illegal” as a noun has long passed that point. > > In the past the terms oriental, colored, and tranny were everyday words used with no malice to describe asian, black and transexual people. Each reached a point where the word was taken over by people using it in a pejorative way and eventually it crossed that indefinable tipping point where it was no longer acceptable to use by decent people. > > Rather than rehash all the arguments about illegal immigrant as being such a term I’ll just repost some links from another thread. I love how the point is indefinable, but you then go on to define it as being in the past or on the cusp. When did the authority to make these pronouncements get conceded to language police on the left? > [@](#): > > The bottom line is the term is considered pejorative to those it applies to and many others and that is reason enough to consider it so. Especially once people started doing the tell-tale shortening of the term from ‘illegal immigrants’ to ‘illegals’. I agree that a person is not an “illegal.” But a person can be an illegal immigrant. Next up: can a person be a criminal? Answer: yes. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/114 "2017-04-22T02:55:13Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Each reached a point where the word was taken over by people using it in a pejorative way and eventually it crossed that indefinable tipping point where it was no longer acceptable to use by decent people. In the case of “tranny,” I would argue that it was _always_ used in a pejorative way, and society finally realized that that’s probably not a good thing to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/115 "2017-04-22T02:57:02Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > There is an indefinable turning point when a word or phrase used to describe a group of people changes from everyday language to offensive slur. Illegal immigrant is somewhere right on the cusp of that point if not past it. Using “illegal” as a noun has long passed that point. Nitpick: using “illegal” as a noun _started out_ past that point. Dehumanizing and indecent. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/116 "2017-04-22T03:11:07Z")
Missed the edit window: N.B. I’m not taking a position that applying it to people in adjectival form is similarly dehumanizing and indecent. Being a product of the era in which I was socialized, I find “illegal (_X_)” to be the least stilted and contrived-sounding option available. If a different preferred description becomes ascendant in the culture, I can see myself accepting it. But not “illegal” as a noun, which will always be dehumanizing and indecent. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/117 "2017-04-22T04:12:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I love how the point is indefinable, but you then go on to define it as being in the past or on the cusp. > > When did the authority to make these pronouncements get conceded to language police on the left? That’s just how language changes. It isn’t a partisan process. There’s no way to define or predict the exact moment where enough people will perceive a word to be offensive that everyone else stops using it. It happens slowly over a long time. I can safely say illegal immigrant is on the cusp of such a transition based us even having this conversation, and the general trend it is taking over time toward more and more people finding it offensive. When exactly it crosses some line that it makes it into every style guide or whatever other justifications you’re using to keep saying it knowing it it is offensive is not precisely predictable. It might be another year, or another 5 but that is where it is going. In the mean time there are still large numbers of those it describes and others who already take offense so that is reason enough for me to choose another term. Besides anything else Illegal immigrant is inflammatory and not even accurate by most uses of “illegal” - we’ve had this conversation before. In the huge majority of cases no criminal offense is involved in a person’s immigration status. So why use it instead of “undocumented” or “unauthorized” if those people find them to be less offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/118 "2017-04-22T11:35:05Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Missed the edit window: > > N.B. I’m not taking a position that applying it to people in adjectival form is similarly dehumanizing and indecent. Being a product of the era in which I was socialized, I find “illegal (_X_)” to be the least stilted and contrived-sounding option available. If a different preferred description becomes ascendant in the culture, I can see myself accepting it. But not “illegal” as a noun, which will always be dehumanizing and indecent. We’re not in disagreement. I don’t have as strong an emotional objection; I agree it’s a word that makes the subject an Other, and not an Us. My primary objection is that it’s either vague, or that the usage is more correctly captured by “criminal.” We have little concern about referring to a bank robber as a criminal. If the interest is simply to identify a person as one who’s violated criminal law, that’s the word. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/119 "2017-04-22T11:36:06Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > In the huge majority of cases no criminal offense is involved in a person’s immigration status. So why use it instead of “undocumented” or “unauthorized” if those people find them to be less offensive? Because I don’t agree that’s true “in the huge majority of cases.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828/120 "2017-04-22T12:06:49Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > I was watching an anti illegal video from a conservative youtuber > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6aUKarnouQ&lc=z12dhly4btqot1uyk04cihgyrn2ne1wjytg0k.1492676602644712](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6aUKarnouQ&lc=z12dhly4btqot1uyk04cihgyrn2ne1wjytg0k.1492676602644712) > It was standard in it’s contempt and hatred of illegals, and glee over seeing them get deported and uprooted. Then I went and read the comments. Oceans of agreement and worse when it comes to their attitudes towards illegals. > > I understand the need to deport people, but the glee and self righteousness, and open contempt for people being uprooted as if they deserve every rotten consequence because of their status physically repulses me. > > I see these as incredibly vile people, and I wish ill upon them. Wow. Wanting to have our immigration laws enforced and not wanting people to be rewarded for breaking the law makes us “incredibly vile” people that you “wish ill upon”? It’s a shame we can’t post graphics directly. [Obi-Wan describes your post best.](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/Clothahump/14494796_1371071046266555_8576764432400142635_n1_zpsz63crqxm.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-on-immigration-are-the-most-vicious-people-on-earth/784828.md?page=7)