# Conservatives Overwhelmingly Oppose Healthcare for 9/11 Workers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816 "2010-08-01T20:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/81 "2010-08-02T13:39:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@sleeping](#): > > > > Right. So there is actually no evidence of public disapproval for providing 9/11-related benefits. I don’t think you can adduce the “general public antipathy” here. Granted, I believe that everyone deserves care and we’re all better off when it is provided, but even if someone did hold such a “general antipathy” it would still be likely that they would make a distinction between ordinary events and crises (especially when said recipient may even have aided in the response to the crisis). > > > > As to the specificity of recipient diseases, I’ve already pointed out that it is impossible and would be fruitless to attempt to delineate the causes of a chronic illness. > > And you’re so right about this that not only is the contrary opinion wrong, but utterly evil? Which part are you referring to: –that even if there is “general public antipathy” it might not apply to every case, especially one as is exceptional as this –that is not possible to determine the causality of chronic disease ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/82 "2010-08-02T13:45:08Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > You can bet your ass there will be plenty of American citizens lining up to get get a piece they don’t deserve. > > You know, this might be true inasmuch as American citizens are just as likely to do this as illegal immigrants, but I would also point out that people are not completely driven by self-interest. I remind people than in the days following 9/11, crime in NYC dropped and fraud with regard to WTC-related operations was almost nonexistent. I hate to shatter your faith but even though I believe in those moments of courage charity and nobility that people exhibit and hope for the best, I am also reminded of how petty and self serving people can be and how quickly they will lie cheat and steal for a couple of bucks. [Here](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13355796/) [here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2183522&page=1) [here](http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/5715/) want more? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/83 "2010-08-02T14:00:16Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I think you’re getting hung up on distinctions that don’t matter. If an illegal immigrants house catches on fire because the neighbors burned leaves carelessly would it not be pure malice to deny them the government benefit of the fire department to rescue them? Likewise if someone who cleaned ground zero develops breathing problems as a result, why is their status any more relevant than someone’s license plate status in a T-bone? I think we need to address whether we’re talking about illegal aliens who happen to be residents of the area, and illegal aliens who helped in the rescue and cleanup efforts. Would the hypothetical Republican amendment have differentiated between the two? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, I’m selfish and hateful. Just like the governments of Canada and the U.K. and France and Australia and Japan and…well, you get the idea. The governments of Canada and the UK and France and Australia all offer (some) benefits to illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/84 "2010-08-02T14:07:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > That’s not the question here. The question is, is it the government’s job to help them out if something _does_ happen? > > But it’s very relevant. It’s the same logic. If you’re saying they deserve whatever happens to them while here illegally. Then unless, you’re logically inconsistent, you’re saying driving on an expired plate means you deserve whatever happens to you on the road. One group by law shouldn’t be here, and the other by law shouldn’t be on the road. Same thing. > > So unless those conservatives were all about completely rewriting liability and protection laws then they were just out to further punish folks, **who helped America deal with a devastating attack,** for an unrelated crime. In short malice. I can’t see many of the rescuers being illegal immigrants; it is more likely that the immigrants who have developed illnesses were bystanders watching the events unfold; most rescuers would have been with the various municipal services, which would necessitate citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/85 "2010-08-02T14:10:27Z")
AIUI, most of the people who claim to have developed illnesses as a result of the attacks are cleanup workers, some percentage of whom surely were undocumented. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/86 "2010-08-02T14:12:40Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@sleeping](#): > > > > You know, this might be true inasmuch as American citizens are just as likely to do this as illegal immigrants, but I would also point out that people are not completely driven by self-interest. I remind people than in the days following 9/11, crime in NYC dropped and fraud with regard to WTC-related operations was almost nonexistent. > > I hate to shatter your faith but even though I believe in those moments of courage charity and nobility that people exhibit and hope for the best, I am also reminded of how petty and self serving people can be and how quickly they will lie cheat and steal for a couple of bucks. > > [Here](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13355796/) > > [here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2183522&page=1) > > [here](http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/5715/) > > want more? I was referring to the low rate of crime _on_ September 11th, and in the days following it. Not saying that some time down the line someone didn’t engage in 9/11-related fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/87 "2010-08-02T14:20:50Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > And you’re so right about this that not only is the contrary opinion wrong, but utterly evil? > > Which part are you referring to: > –that even if there is “general public antipathy” it might not apply to every case, especially one as is exceptional as this > –that is not possible to determine the causality of chronic disease Yes and yes. That is, a congressman may well feel that the general public antipathy to providing illegal aliens with benefits extends to cases like this, and/or it’s possible to rule out certain causes of certain chronic disease to the extent that this law would benefit from permitting those sorts of determinations. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/88 "2010-08-02T14:31:09Z")
Forgive me if I’m wrong here, if the Democrats would have opened the bill up for debate, couldn’t the Republicans have offered amendment after amendment on everything from abortion to creationism in schools until the end of time and wouldn’t have taken 2/3 to close debate anyway? If so, I don’t blame them for not opening it up for debate given the tenor of debate in the current congress. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/89 "2010-08-02T14:33:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Selfishness and hate are merely buzzwords liberals use to denigrate anyone who disagrees with them. Speaking of empty buzzwords, whatever happened to “compassionate conservatism”? > [@](#): > > Being brown doesn’t give you the right to flaunt the law, and it’s disingenuous in the extreme if not outright dishonest to claim that objections to illegal immigration can only be explained by selfishness and racism. Should we have a provision in the bill to deny medical benefits for people who have too many unpaid parking tickets, or convicted of posessing marijuana, or evading taxes? Those too are illegal activities. Why are we only singling out illegal immigrants here? Just because someone breaks the law doesn’t mean we should lose all humanitarian concern for them. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/90 "2010-08-02T14:35:05Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > I hate to shatter your faith but even though I believe in those moments of courage charity and nobility that people exhibit and hope for the best, I am also reminded of how petty and self serving people can be and how quickly they will lie cheat and steal for a couple of bucks. > > > > [Here](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13355796/) > > > > [here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2183522&page=1) > > > > [here](http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/5715/) > > > > want more? > > I was referring to the low rate of crime _on_ September 11th, and in the days following it. Not saying that some time down the line someone didn’t engage in 9/11-related fraud. read your own post, what does > [@](#): > > fraud with regard to WTC-related operations was almost nonexistent. mean? Honest, I wish it wasn’t true but the world is full of people who eagerly scam money from charities or as a charity. If there are billions of dollars at stake you can count on scumbags trying to get a piece. In fact some of those scumbags are in congress steering millions to their scumbag freinds for a little kickback. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/91 "2010-08-02T14:37:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@sleeping](#): > > > > Which part are you referring to: > > –that even if there is “general public antipathy” it might not apply to every case, especially one as is exceptional as this > > –that is not possible to determine the causality of chronic disease > > Yes and yes. > > That is, a congressman may well feel that the general public antipathy to providing illegal aliens with benefits extends to cases like this, and/or it’s possible to rule out certain causes of certain chronic disease to the extent that this law would benefit from permitting those sorts of determinations. Point #1: You have no direct evidence of this. You can make assumptions and interpretations, but the fact is that public opinion on this unknown. Point #2: Sorry, but here you and other conservatives are simply wrong. There is no net benefit from precluding people from receiving healthcare, particularly for chronic diseases. I remember you bringing up this idea in the healthcare threads and you still don’t seem to understand. The causality of chronic disease is so multi-faceted that it is impossible _even for the top scientists working with the best researchers_ to determine with certainty the extent to which _an individual_’s disease is due to genetics, diet, behavior, etc. And the cost of such an attempt would dwarf that of simply providing healthcare to anyone who claims eligibility (whether that eligibility is simply universal as would be the case with single payer, or 9/11-related as is the case here). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/92 "2010-08-02T14:40:10Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > Selfishness and hate are merely buzzwords liberals use to denigrate anyone who disagrees with them. > > Speaking of empty buzzwords, whatever happened to “compassionate conservatism”? > > > [@](#): > > > > Being brown doesn’t give you the right to flaunt the law, and it’s disingenuous in the extreme if not outright dishonest to claim that objections to illegal immigration can only be explained by selfishness and racism. > > Should we have a provision in the bill to deny medical benefits for people who have too many unpaid parking tickets, or convicted of posessing marijuana, or evading taxes? Those too are illegal activities. Why are we only singling out illegal immigrants here? > > Just because someone breaks the law doesn’t mean we should lose all humanitarian concern for them. The illegal alien thing was a poltical game for the republicans. It’s bullshit. Maybe some congressman trying to impress his district wanted it in there. Maybe some Dems who didn’t want it in tried an end run to pass the bill. Just stop the petty BS and vote yes or no, Then have the balls to stand by your vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/93 "2010-08-02T15:48:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The illegal alien thing was a poltical game for the republicans. It’s bullshit. Maybe some congressman trying to impress his district wanted it in there. Maybe some Dems who didn’t want it in tried an end run to pass the bill. Just stop the petty BS and vote yes or no, Then have the balls to stand by your vote. So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” What should he do? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/94 "2010-08-02T15:58:30Z")
He should have to answer as to why he hates the victims of 9/11, just as a Democrat would have to do were the tables reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/95 "2010-08-02T16:18:52Z")
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why a hypothetical undocumented immigrant who helped on 9/11 shouldn’t be taken care of by us. “He shouldn’t have been here” doesn’t count. It’s a moot point, irrelevent to the good deed he did. Butch shouldn’t have been in the pawn shop basement, but that’s irrelevent, because the fact is he WAS there, and Marsellus recognized and rewarded his good deed. And I still want to know if this immigrant is in fact hypothetical, or if there is reason to believe that undocumented immigrants did help on 9/11 and would be seeking medical assistance? Are these repugnant fucks denying aid to those who pitched in on our darkest day JUST to score points on the current hot-button issue, or is there reason to believe that they are earnestly trying to save a significant amount of money? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/96 "2010-08-02T16:20:44Z")
They’re (ostensibly) not trying to save any money, since the bill appropriates a limited amount of funding regardless of the number who might be entitled to it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/97 "2010-08-02T16:33:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > The illegal alien thing was a poltical game for the republicans. It’s bullshit. Maybe some congressman trying to impress his district wanted it in there. Maybe some Dems who didn’t want it in tried an end run to pass the bill. Just stop the petty BS and vote yes or no, Then have the balls to stand by your vote. > > So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” > > What should he do? He should decide whether, on the whole, the benefits outweight the deficits, and vote accordingly. IMO, the idea of denying benefits to everyone because a very few aliens might claim them, who despite their status provided valuable service in a time of emergency, is reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/98 "2010-08-02T16:35:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” > > What should he do? He should make a decision based on his perception of the relevant priorities - preferably utilising an evidence-based approach - and then be prepared to back up that stance when questioned about it. Seems to me that would be a fairly common position for a politician to be in. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/99 "2010-08-02T16:47:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” > > What should he do? He should recognize that perfect purity is absurdly impractical. If you’re going to dole out a big hulking wad of cash for the deserving, you may reasonably expect that someone undeserving will sneak in for a piece of the action. Even diamonds are flawed. No reason to throw it away. But I want to thank you for, once again, bringing the desperately important issue of liberal hypocrisy to our attention. I shudder to think what horror may befall our Republic if this crucial issue is not constantly brought to the center of our focus. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/100 "2010-08-02T16:49:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > The illegal alien thing was a political game for the republicans. It’s bullshit. Maybe some congressman trying to impress his district wanted it in there. Maybe some Dems who didn’t want it in tried an end run to pass the bill. Just stop the petty BS and vote yes or no, Then have the balls to stand by your vote. > > So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” > > What should he do? He should get real. The man either has too much of a hard on against illegal aliens or it’s just a political tool for him. Either way it’s just not necessary for this bill. Does the amendment to prevent giving the money to illegal aliens also have a practical way to tell who in NYC is illegal and who isn’t? Are we going to require everyone with a foreign sounding name in NY fucking City to produce citizenship papers. Maybe the amount is way too high to begin with and we need to narrow the filed of who gets a piece to prevent waste. That’s fine. To single out illegal aliens seems like bullshit to me, unless you plan on using the bill as a means to expose and deport them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816.md?page=6)