# Conservatives Overwhelmingly Oppose Healthcare for 9/11 Workers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816 "2010-08-01T20:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/121 "2010-08-02T20:16:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Although I’ve mostly been on your side in this thread, this is bollocks. Nobody competent could possibly have thought the benefits of regime change in Iraq were worth a dozen lost US aircraft, let alone 32,000 American casualties, uncountable numbers of Iraqi casualties and 736 billion dollars. Listen to [Christopher Hitchens’ account of life in Iraq under Saddam Hussein](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eaEuf5Z6yA&feature=PlayList&p=2E6E8ED5FFC37162&playnext=1&index=37), based upon his first hand observations after having been there, and perhaps you’ll begin to get an idea as to why some of us feel that the Iraqi populace is much, much better off now than it was under Hussein, despite the Iraqi casualties that were an unavoidable result of the war and which we took considerable pains to minimize. Then add to that the elimination of a serious threat to some of our allies in the region and the risk of present of future WMD which Hussein either had or would never have stopped trying to develop, and you have a scenario in which a great many ‘competent’ people could find the Iraq war not only excusable but necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/122 "2010-08-02T20:23:59Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > Lies and/or misrepresentations like those made by **Blalron** above, asserted by the OP in the thread title, and by **Cisco** and others about conservative motives are what enable Rush Limbaugh to fill three hours a day saying things like this. > > > > Why can’t liberals simply debate things objectively and on their merit alone? Why is any and all opposition to anything liberal always loaded with subjective, biased interpretations of conservative motives and insults such as “greed”, “selfishness”, “hate” and “racism”? > > I haven’t told a lie in this thread. Sure you have. You’ve accused me of selfishness and hatred and you’ve used those accusations to explain my comments. > [@Cisco](#): > > And I still haven’t accused you of racism, you paranoid fuck, but you’re making me wonder. No, you haven’t. But prescience and past experience with the hive mind of this board shows that any opposition to liberal attitudes on illegal immigration will almost immediately followed by accusations of racism and hatred of “brown” people. I just thought I’d head them off (your own or anyone else’s) at the pass. And for once, it seems to have worked. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/123 "2010-08-02T20:25:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what if a congressman’s position is: “I want to give this care to everyone covered by the bill except illegal aliens, who had no business being there in the first place?” > > What should he do? > [@Bricker](#): > > What if his position is that he doesn’t care about the illegal aliens, but he doesn’t believe the bill should cover every person whose place of employment was at any time between September 11, 2001, and May 31, 2003 in lower Manhattan? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … Representative King hit the nail on the head when he said, prior to Weiner’s showboating little snit: > > _“The reason HR-847 is not being brought up under regular order is that the majority party is petrified of having its members face a potential vote on illegal immigration, but the reality is, you could pass this bill. This bill should be more important than a campaign talking point. **You could have passed it any time during the past three and a half years but you want political cover**. Thank God for our country that the first responders of 9/11 didn’t look for cover before they did what they had to do and lived up to their oath.”_ > > [bolding mine] > > This place makes my ass twitch sometimes. Like, say, the above mentioned Rep. King? Maybe, he could have not been a [cosponsor](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-847) of a bill that didn’t already address those concerns? CMC fnord! SA that twitch in your ass, it’s King’s peter. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/124 "2010-08-02T20:41:26Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > No, you haven’t. But prescience and past experience with the hive mind of this board shows that any opposition to liberal attitudes on illegal immigration will almost immediately followed by accusations of racism and hatred of “brown” people. I just thought I’d head them off (your own or anyone else’s) at the pass. And for once, it seems to have worked. This is what happens when I post in haste; you most certainly have accused me of racism, albeit not directly. Remember when you said that I “really was that hateful…”? Who were you thinking of as the subject of all that so-called hate, if not “brown people”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/125 "2010-08-02T20:47:34Z")
First you claim that your premptive strike has “headed off” accusations of racism, then, in your next breath, decry such accusations. Well, which is it? And just so you know, “hateful” is a descriptive of character, not opinions. It is not synonymous with “bigoted”. One can be utterly misanthropic without any such distinctions of race, color, or creed. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/126 "2010-08-02T20:49:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@Cisco](#): > > > > I haven’t told a lie in this thread. > > Sure you have. You’ve accused me of selfishness and hatred and you’ve used those accusations to explain my comments. Selfishness because you don’t want your money going to help others. Hatefulness for, well, the same reason. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@Cisco](#): > > > > And I still haven’t accused you of racism, you paranoid fuck, but you’re making me wonder. > > No, you haven’t. But prescience and past experience with the hive mind of this board shows that any opposition to liberal attitudes on illegal immigration will almost immediately followed by accusations of racism and hatred of “brown” people. I just thought I’d head them off (your own or anyone else’s) at the pass. And for once, it seems to have worked. It only “worked” in your head, because that’s the only place it ever existed. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@Starving Artist](#): > > > > No, you haven’t. But prescience and past experience with the hive mind of this board shows that any opposition to liberal attitudes on illegal immigration will almost immediately followed by accusations of racism and hatred of “brown” people. I just thought I’d head them off (your own or anyone else’s) at the pass. And for once, it seems to have worked. > > This is what happens when I post in haste; you most certainly have accused me of racism, albeit not directly. Remember when you said that I “really was that hateful…”? Who were you thinking of as the subject of all that so-called hate, if not “brown people”? Wow. Thou really doth protest way too much. The answer is “people” you asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/127 "2010-08-02T20:49:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > Although I’ve mostly been on your side in this thread, this is bollocks. Nobody competent could possibly have thought the benefits of regime change in Iraq were worth a dozen lost US aircraft, let alone 32,000 American casualties, uncountable numbers of Iraqi casualties and 736 billion dollars. > > Listen to [Christopher Hitchens’ account of life in Iraq under Saddam Hussein](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eaEuf5Z6yA&feature=PlayList&p=2E6E8ED5FFC37162&playnext=1&index=37), based upon his first hand observations after having been there, and perhaps you’ll begin to get an idea as to why some of us feel that the Iraqi populace is much, much better off now than it was under Hussein, despite the Iraqi casualties that were an unavoidable result of the war and which we took considerable pains to minimize. > > Then add to that the elimination of a serious threat to some of our allies in the region and the risk of present of future WMD which Hussein either had or would never have stopped trying to develop, and you have a scenario in which a great many ‘competent’ people could find the Iraq war not only excusable but necessary. So when do we attack North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/128 "2010-08-02T21:27:44Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wow. Thou really doth protest way too much. The answer is “people” you asshole. Ah, here we go again. Remember when I asked why any opposition to liberal goals is always met with insults toward their opponents and lies about their motives? But all that aside, now you’re just being silly. Your answer as to why you labelled my support of Republican thinking on this bill as “hateful” is because I just hate people in general? I’m just a big ol’ misantrope who doesn’t want anybody anywhere being helped by anybody anywhere? And I’m an “asshole” to boot! In the first place, I’m hardly someone who doesn’t want his money helping others. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the course of my life trying to help certain people, and many of them were people who most felt didn’t deserve it. But I do have certain objections to having the government decide how much of my money is needed to help people and how it’s going to be used. If I feel the expenditure is unwise, harmful, casts too wide a net, or is being done primarily to gain political capital, I will object and that objection has nothing to do with hatred of “people”. :rolleyes: You were really grasping at straws with that phony excuse. > [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > So when do we attack North Korea? Probably after it’s developed a reputation for using WMD on people from other countries as well as its own, and after it’s invaded another country in order to seize its oil, and after it has lobbed missles at our allies, and after it…well, you get the idea. The welfare of the Iraqi populace wasn’t the only reason ‘competent’ people found the war to be necessary, but it was a significant one and one which I agree with wholeheartedly. It’s interesting to me that so many of the people around here who become so outraged over Iraqi casualties from the war are simultaneously completely unconcerned when it comes to the death, torture, fear and misery that millions of Iraqis had to endure under the rule of Hussein. Far more people have become “casualties” at the hands of Saddam Hussein than have ever become so because of the war, and they would still be occurring today (and in the future under his reprehensible and even more sadistic sons). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/129 "2010-08-02T21:59:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Ah, here we go again. Remember when I asked why any opposition to liberal goals is always met with insults toward their opponents and lies about their motives? > > But all that aside, now you’re just being silly. Your answer as to why you labelled my support of Republican thinking on this bill as “hateful” is because I just hate people in general? I’m just a big ol’ misantrope who doesn’t want anybody anywhere being helped by anybody anywhere? And I’m an “asshole” to boot! > > In the first place, I’m hardly someone who doesn’t want his money helping others. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the course of my life trying to help certain people, and many of them were people who most felt didn’t deserve it. But I do have certain objections to having the government decide how much of my money is needed to help people and how it’s going to be used. If I feel the expenditure is unwise, harmful, casts too wide a net, or is being done primarily to gain political capital, I will object and that objection has nothing to do with hatred of “people”. :rolleyes: You were really grasping at straws with that phony excuse. In other words, you’ve got nothing and had to resort to self-aggrandizing trumpeting and flinging vague insults at “liberals.” No wonder you like Rush Limbaugh. Looks like you’ve learned a thing or two from him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/130 "2010-08-02T23:01:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Then add to that the elimination of a serious threat to some of our allies in the region and the risk of present of future WMD which Hussein either had or would never have stopped trying to develop, and you have a scenario in which a great many ‘competent’ people could find the Iraq war not only excusable but necessary. So why didn’t he? He could have developed any WMD he wanted, short of nuclear weapons in a matter of weeks. And yet we find nothing. Hell, Belgium could develop WMD, if they wanted. And yet Saddam had none. What was he waiting for? Your scenario demands more than a hatred of America, it demands a suicidal hatred of America. Well, if that were true, what was holding him back? Saddam’s number one enemy wasn’t the USA, Saddam’s number one enemy was Iran. That was the basis of a previously cozy relationship between Saddam and the US, back before anybody cared how terrible a dictator he was. You want to see those pictures again, Cheney in Baghdad, shaking hands with Saddam? Haven’t forgotten, have you? Don’t recall a lot of hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth about what a terrible, terrible person he was. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/131 "2010-08-02T23:05:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > Although I’ve mostly been on your side in this thread, this is bollocks. > > Thanks for your vigorous assistance thus far. > > > [@](#): > > > > Nobody competent could possibly have thought the benefits of regime change in Iraq were worth a dozen lost US aircraft, let alone 32,000 American casualties, uncountable numbers of Iraqi casualties and 736 billion dollars. > > Why not? What are the dollars associated with regime change in Iraq? How many people did Saddam and his sons torture in 1998, and how much money do you assign to each? None, because “regime change” didn’t become a stated goal of the Iraq invasion until the first stated goal was quietly abandoned. The American public and the UN Security Council were sold a false bill of goods. The calculus would have been quite different had we gone to Iraq to save Iraqis from Saddam. We didn’t. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Listen to [Christopher Hitchens’ account of life in Iraq under Saddam Hussein](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eaEuf5Z6yA&feature=PlayList&p=2E6E8ED5FFC37162&playnext=1&index=37), based upon his first hand observations after having been there, and perhaps you’ll begin to get an idea as to why some of us feel that the Iraqi populace is much, much better off now than it was under Hussein, despite the Iraqi casualties that were an unavoidable result of the war and which we took considerable pains to minimize. > > Then add to that the elimination of a serious threat to some of our allies in the region and the risk of present of future WMD which Hussein either had or would never have stopped trying to develop, and you have a scenario in which a great many ‘competent’ people could find the Iraq war not only excusable but necessary. Again, nobody gave a shit about “life under Saddam” until there weren’t any WMDs. The rationale for the war wasn’t “let’s get rid of that bad man”, but “don’t let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud”. _The elimination of a serious threat to our allies_? Really? The net effect of the invasion of Iraq - which, I’ll remind you, was supposedly the greatest battle of the War on Terror - was to create a Factory of Terror. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/132 "2010-08-02T23:10:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tell you what, **Bricker.** I have some trust in your integrity, bruised and battered as it may be. If you look me straight in the monitor and tell me three times that you sincerely believe that Republican intransigence on this, and all those other issues, is based solely and exclusively on principled and sincere conviction… And not, repeat NOT, a matter of grandstanding and maneuvering for political advantage… > > I will believe that you believe it. At the moment, I’m sorely pressed. My thoughts (worth what you paid for them): X% was that the bill is bad in its current form. Y% was that the way the Democrats brought it to the floor was inappropriate Z% was to keep the Democrats from having an easy victory this close to the mid-terms. The distribution I am sure varies by Rep, and should also include some portion of “The Whip told me to vote this way.” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/133 "2010-08-02T23:23:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > Although I’ve mostly been on your side in this thread, this is bollocks. Nobody competent could possibly have thought the benefits of regime change in Iraq were worth a dozen lost US aircraft, let alone 32,000 American casualties, uncountable numbers of Iraqi casualties and 736 billion dollars. > > Listen to [Christopher Hitchens’ account of life in Iraq under Saddam Hussein](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eaEuf5Z6yA&feature=PlayList&p=2E6E8ED5FFC37162&playnext=1&index=37), based upon his first hand observations after having been there, and perhaps you’ll begin to get an idea as to why some of us feel that the Iraqi populace is much, much better off now than it was under Hussein, despite the Iraqi casualties that were an unavoidable result of the war and which we took considerable pains to minimize. > > Then add to that the elimination of a serious threat to some of our allies in the region and the risk of present of future WMD which Hussein either had or would never have stopped trying to develop, and you have a scenario in which a great many ‘competent’ people could find the Iraq war not only excusable but necessary. It is _never_ up to us to decide another sovereign nation has a government too evil to continue. To say the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam and sons is overly simplistic bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/134 "2010-08-03T00:05:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It is _never_ up to us to decide another sovereign nation has a government too evil to continue. To say the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam and sons is overly simplistic bullshit. Sure it’s up to us. Anyone who says it isn’t is just peddling overly simplistic bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/135 "2010-08-03T00:34:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > They did allow a straight up or down vote. They chose a procedure that required 2/3 majority and the GOP voted it down. > > Here’s a [link from the other thread](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/29/politics/main6726612.shtml) It’s more complicated than is being presented here. They’ve had years to get something done and hammer out some details to help those who deserve it and they couldn’t get it done. Shame on both parties. I like Weiner’s fire but it is political theater with some self serving motives. > I just don’t get the GOP whining about procedure. In principle I agree with what Weiner ranted about. If it’s a bad bill, and wasting money then have the freaking nads to say so. > The illegal alien thing is just more political bullshit. You can bet your ass there will be plenty of American citizens lining up to get get a piece they don’t deserve. What I’m saying is, the Dems have more than a majority in both houses. They did not need to use the 2/3rd procedure to pass it. I’m assuming everyone is aware that for a “bill to become a law” (there was even a cartoon released in the 70s explaining this), you have to have a majority of both houses of congress pass the same bill, send it to the President who then ratifies it. The **only** reason for going with the 2/3rds majority procedure was to deny Republicans the chance to make political hay out of a tangential illegal immigrant aspect of it. Now, I’ll totally get behind people that think the Republicans are being stupid twats. But at the end of the day, it’s a Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and a Democratic White House. The Republicans can only play ball on the Dems terms, and the Dems are the only ones to blame if they can’t pass legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/136 "2010-08-03T01:57:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The **only** reason for going with the 2/3rds majority procedure was to deny Republicans the chance to make political hay out of a tangential illegal immigrant aspect of it. Well, more than just make political hay. The illegal immigrant amendment would have killed the bill, because enough Democrats would have voted for the amendment that it would become part of the bill, and then enough Democrats would have voted against the final bill to kill it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/137 "2010-08-03T02:58:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure it’s up to us. Anyone who says it isn’t is just peddling overly simplistic bullshit. No it isn’t. We don’t get to gaze out at the rest of the world and decide which governments are behaving well and can continue to exist. We live in a world where we must respect the sovereignty of other nations. We even signed on to international law supporting the sovereignty of other nations. There are times when human rights violations can be the exception to the rule. [Kosovo is an example](http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/un/un_sovereignty.htm) > [@](#): > > “To use force unilaterally is to violate international law and undermine world order. Yet to respect sovereignty all the time is to be complicit in human rights violations sometimes. To argue that the U.N. Security Council must give its consent to humanitarian war is to risk policy paralysis by handing over the agenda to the most egregious and obstreperous.” but that is not something we get to decide arbitrarily > [@](#): > > “The bottom line question for us is this: Faced with another Holocaust or Rwanda-type genocide on the one hand, and a Security Council veto on the other, what would we do?” Thar asked. “A new consensus on humanitarian intervention is urgently needed.” Although Saddam was a brutal dictator nothing rose to genocide. It was a war built on lies that cost hundreds of thousands of lives, hundreds of thousands of severe injuries, and over 700 billion dollars. Personally I find it astonishing that you can defend and try to justify the war and then bitch about potential waste in this bill. When you consider the total impact of the effort in lives lost and forever changed and hundreds of billions spent, to then say. “The Iraqi’s are better off without Saddam” is indeed oversimplified bullshit to justify the war. Considering the evidence it’s akin to believing in a flat earth that was created 6000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/138 "2010-08-03T03:06:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > They did allow a straight up or down vote. They chose a procedure that required 2/3 majority and the GOP voted it down. > > > > Here’s a [link from the other thread](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/29/politics/main6726612.shtml) It’s more complicated than is being presented here. They’ve had years to get something done and hammer out some details to help those who deserve it and they couldn’t get it done. Shame on both parties. I like Weiner’s fire but it is political theater with some self serving motives. > > I just don’t get the GOP whining about procedure. In principle I agree with what Weiner ranted about. If it’s a bad bill, and wasting money then have the freaking nads to say so. > > The illegal alien thing is just more political bullshit. You can bet your ass there will be plenty of American citizens lining up to get get a piece they don’t deserve. > > What I’m saying is, the Dems have more than a majority in both houses. They did not need to use the 2/3rd procedure to pass it. I’m assuming everyone is aware that for a “bill to become a law” (there was even a cartoon released in the 70s explaining this), you have to have a majority of both houses of congress pass the same bill, send it to the President who then ratifies it. > > The **only** reason for going with the 2/3rds majority procedure was to deny Republicans the chance to make political hay out of a tangential illegal immigrant aspect of it. > > Now, I’ll totally get behind people that think the Republicans are being stupid twats. But at the end of the day, it’s a Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and a Democratic White House. The Republicans can only play ball on the Dems terms, and the Dems are the only ones to blame if they can’t pass legislation. I’d agree that the Dems have been pussies in terms of getting things done. My complaint isn’t even that the GOP voted no. My bitch is what Weiner said, sincere or grandstanding. If you vote no then defend your vote on the merits of the bill. Don’t blame proceudre and whine that you wanted it to pass. Vote yes or no on the merits of the bill and defend your vote on the merits of the bill. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/139 "2010-08-03T03:11:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > The **only** reason for going with the 2/3rds majority procedure was to deny Republicans the chance to make political hay out of a tangential illegal immigrant aspect of it. > > Well, more than just make political hay. The illegal immigrant amendment would have killed the bill, because enough Democrats would have voted for the amendment that it would become part of the bill, and then enough Democrats would have voted against the final bill to kill it. The illegal Immigrant amendment was bullshit. It had no place in the bill. You want to prevent waste there are other areas that need it more and better ways to do it in this bill. Reduce the amount and narrow the criteria for recipients if you need do but get something done. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816/140 "2010-08-03T03:37:41Z")
How would an illegal immigrant get this health care in the end? Ok, let’s say that this bill passes without any amendments. Juan Gonzalez was a 9/11 worker and applies for benefits. While checking his employment history, the feds discover that he is an illegal immigrant! So, isn’t he deported instead of receiving health care? I’ve never understood this aspect of any of these “denial of X to illegal immigrants”. Once they are found to be illegals, don’t any benefits immediately cease and they go to a detention facility to await deportment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-overwhelmingly-oppose-healthcare-for-9-11-workers/548816.md?page=8)