# Conservatives say Dean is unelectable. I say they're afraid of him. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024 "2004-01-06T15:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/81 "2004-01-07T16:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*If by this you mean that the ad was a nasty lie, you are correct. > \*\* What did it say that was a lie? It just expressed a subjective opinion that some (not me) found offensive. > [@](#): > > **So soliciting the thing and posting on your website means “having nothing to do with it”? I do not think these words mean what you wish them to mean.** They didn’t solicit Hitler-Bush comparisons they solicited anti-Bush ads in general. > [@](#): > > **Actually, according to what I heard on the radio this morning, MoveOn first lied about having it on their website. The RNC was able to document that this was, in fact, untrue, and showed the ad on their website to forestall further prevarication. Both parties have subsequently removed the offensive ad.** Well if you heard it on the radio it must be true. :rolleyes: I don’t suppose you have an objective cite? > [@](#): > > **In other words, Homebrew and others are being dishonest and offensive in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=233494), because they are blaming a whole political party for one ad. Right? Or are your standards as flexible as they often tend to be?** _tu quoque_, Shodan? The Max Cleland ad was actually run by a Republican candidate for the Senate in an actual campaign. The Bush-Hitler ad has no affiliation with any candidate, any party or any campaign. Even if **Homebrew** was a hypocrite it still wouldn’t make your generalizations in _this_ thread any more valid. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/82 "2004-01-07T17:04:28Z")
**Avalonian** : A question, if I may. What could Republicans, or Bush supporters, say or do that could _disprove_ the thesis you put forth in your OP? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/83 "2004-01-07T17:40:10Z")
Hmmm…it’s just the NY Post and some Australian rag, but here’s an article saying that the foe Bush fears most is…drum roll…[Joe Lieberman!](http://www.nypost.com/seven/01072004/news/nationalnews/5105.htm) > [@](#): > > “Newspapers report that George Bush told the prime minister who he thinks would be the toughest Democrat for him to run against. What do you think he said? Howard Dean? No way. George Bush said that Joe Lieberman would be the toughest Democrat to beat,” the ad continues. Maybe because Joe is, in some ways, ‘closest’ to Bush? The attacks he’ll make against Dean won’t hold as much water against Joe. And I’d love to see the anti-Dean ad mentioned at the end 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/84 "2004-01-07T20:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein \* > \*\ ***Avalonian** : A question, if I may. What could Republicans, or Bush supporters, say or do that could _disprove_ the thesis you put forth in your OP? \*\* Very simple, really… substantive, issue-based criticism of Dean. I’ve seen some, but frankly, most of the valid criticisms I’ve seen of Dean have come from the _left_, not the right (though much of the criticism from the left amounts to Dean [not being liberal enough](http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/DVNS_Howard-Dean.htm), which is amusing, considering what conservatives say about him). The right continues to bleat about Dean as an extremist, etc, but fails to come up with much in the way of substantive criticism. I’d love to see someone point out _why_ Dean is wrong about… well, apparently about everything. People say he’s wrong to criticize the war in Iraq. Why are his criticisms wrong? People say he’s wrong to say he would pursue the due process of law against Osama bin Laden. Why is that wrong? People say he’s wrong to pursue reversal of the Bush tax cuts. Why is that wrong? Basically, I’d like to see discussion of the issues regarding Dean… not whether he’s “too liberal” or “not liberal enough” or “too extreme.” Rather than using meaningless labels, I’d like to see some actual thought go into criticism of Dean, and why he’s so much less appealing than (for example) Lieberman. Of course, I can see why Lieberman is appealing… to _conservatives_. But no… I’m disappointed to find that most of the conservatives here, as elsewhere, are satisfied with using the most simplistic and least meaningful terms possible to “criticize” Dean. Now, they’ve tried to bring in the [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) “Bush-Hitler” ad issue into this discussion, when it has **nothing whatsoever** to do with Howard Dean or his campaign. Of course, Dean’s guilty even by the thinnest of associations to these simple-minded folk. _All_ liberals are apparently guilty of sanctioning those ads because one made it. Thanks, by the way, to **Shodan** for continuing to prove my point by bringing up that particular hijack. That’s the level of dicussion I guess we can expect from conservatives in the coming year. Still more pandering to the very lowest common denominator. I’m disappointed, but hardly surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/85 "2004-01-07T20:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > But no… I’m disappointed to find that most of the conservatives here, as elsewhere, are satisfied with using the most simplistic and least meaningful terms possible to “criticize” Dean. This immediately preceding an attempt to dismiss one of the most blatant Godwin-izing it is possible to imagine. I like you. You’re funny. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/86 "2004-01-07T20:53:17Z")
On the day that Saddam Hussein was captured, Dean announced that America was “no safer.” We can certainly debate the truth of that statement; the general reaction from middle America at the capture was positive. Dean’s comment was ill-timed. Dean told the Concord Monitor that he did not want to prejudge the guilt or innocence of bin Laden. In defending that point, he ended up making a legalistic distinction that was lost on many, especially as he conceded that there was no real doubt as to bin Laden’s role in the 9-11 attacks. Again, while his comment was perhaps technically defensible, it was something that opponents can use to good effect to suggest he’s wishy-washy. Not helping matters, Dean later said that a death sentence would be a just punishment for bin Laden, when he ultimately is found. These illustrate what I mean when I say that I would love for Dean to be the Democratic candidate – he will give the Republican ad writers plenty to attack. I gather you’re looking, **Avalonian** , for more substantive discussion of Dean’s actual stands on issues. While those are certainly debatable, I agree that Dean on issues isn’t paritcularly deadly. Dean on off-the-cuff comments is what makes Dean deadly, and why I’d love to see him end up running – his verbal gaffes will be an easy distraction from any attempts he’ll make to focus on issues. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/87 "2004-01-07T20:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **This immediately preceding an attempt to dismiss one of the most blatant Godwin-izing it is possible to imagine.** I dismissed it because it has nothing to do with Dean, which is what we’re discussing here. If you wish to discuss the “Bush-Hitler” ads, take it to the Pit thread where it’s being discussed at length. I repeat, **it has nothing to do with Dean**. Is that such a difficult concept? Or are you actually trying to associate the two, rather than just sneakily implying an association? ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/88 "2004-01-07T21:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > …I agree that Dean on issues isn’t paritcularly deadly. Dean on off-the-cuff comments is what makes Dean deadly, and why I’d love to see him end up running – his verbal gaffes will be an easy distraction from any attempts he’ll make to focus on issues. This is why a Bush/Dean debate will be something to clean out the TiVo for. I am drooling in anticipation. Two guys who scare the shit out of their handlers under the hot lights. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/89 "2004-01-07T21:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > **On the day that Saddam Hussein was captured, Dean announced that America was “no safer.” We can certainly debate the truth of that statement; the general reaction from middle America at the capture was positive. Dean’s comment was ill-timed.** Perhaps it was ill-timed… but was it wrong? Are we indeed safer just because one man was captured? I don’t think so… these days, I hear most people don’t think so either. > [@](#): > > **Dean told the Concord Monitor that he did not want to prejudge the guilt or innocence of bin Laden. In defending that point, he ended up making a legalistic distinction that was lost on many, especially as he conceded that there was no real doubt as to bin Laden’s role in the 9-11 attacks. Again, while his comment was perhaps technically defensible, it was something that opponents can use to good effect to suggest he’s wishy-washy. Not helping matters, Dean later said that a death sentence would be a just punishment for bin Laden, when he ultimately is found.** I found Dean’s stance to be entirely consistent, and frankly, the most appealing. But again, was it _actually_ wishy-washy, ir was it just _portrayed_ that way? My feeling was that it was consistent with Dean’s views in general, and that he didn’t “waffle” for a moment on it. However, his opponents certainly leapt to portray the comments that way. My point is, conservatives are criticizing a Howard Dean who does not exist, which is a mistake many liberals made in 2000 with GW. I’m not trying to advise them on how they _should_ be criticising him, but I find the parallels absolutely fascinating. > [@](#): > > **Dean on off-the-cuff comments is what makes Dean deadly, and why I’d love to see him end up running – his verbal gaffes will be an easy distraction from any attempts he’ll make to focus on issues.** You could say exactly the same thing about Bush, both during 2000 and now… and many have said exactly that. Bush “off-the-cuff” is often a dubious prospect at best… and yet he won in 2000, and enjoys high approval ratings at the moment. Perhaps, with Bush and Dean both in the race, the only thing _left_ to focus on is the issues. 😉 (on preview) heh… or what **stolichnaya** said. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/90 "2004-01-07T21:30:35Z")
**Bricker** , if elections were decided on verbal gaffes, would we really have the president we’ve got? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/91 "2004-01-07T22:03:20Z")
Hubris may describe it best. This may just be an intuitive take, but I see the Pubbies as having lost contact with any sense of vulnerability. They have finally gotten to the Promised Land, all the effective reins of governance in hand. And so shall it be, forever and ever, amen,… Or maybe not. The “maybe not” part is pretty clear to a lot of us, but maybe not to them. They seem perfectly willing to brazen out the whole question of the justification for war. probably because the think they can count on American’s natural reluctance to criticize someone who presents himself as a Wartime Leader. When they started pushing for Dean, they didn’t think _anybody_ could beat them. Probably still don’t. Which is good. Because they’re wrong. **Stoli** , you’ve pointed out a very cheerful prospect, one which I hadn’t considered! That would be one _hell_ of a debate. None of the handlers of either of these men will be able to unpucker thier assholes enough to shit for a week! If they need an enema, if it will have to be accomplished by hypodermic needle! I can hardly wait! What is the earliest date such a thing might be scheduled? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/92 "2004-01-07T22:16:24Z")
Hehe…the thought of Karl Rove living on Tums for the entire campaign…I like it! ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/93 "2004-01-08T00:06:53Z")
Who plays Dean on _SNL_? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/94 "2004-01-08T00:39:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Dean on off-the-cuff comments is what makes Dean deadly, and why I’d love to see him end up running – his verbal gaffes will be an easy distraction from any attempts he’ll make to focus on issues. \*\* Well, you seem to be saying that the Bush administration must seek to distract voters from any campaign that focusses on the issues. So, you admit that the Bush administration is weak on the issues. Progress at last! I knew you had it in you. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/95 "2004-01-08T00:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Dean’s Fiends.** Deanie Babies 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/96 "2004-01-08T01:18:24Z")
You want substantive criticism of Dean? Fine. Here you go: First, Dean says he wants to ‘Re-regulate’ business. Not just financial shenanigans like Enron, but he wants to implement whole reams of new regulations on businesses of all kinds. He particularly mentioned big media, telecom, utilities, the airlines, and ANY business that offers stock options. That is a LOT of businesses. Taken at his word, Dean wants government to interfere in business to an extent not seen since the early 1970’s. This would be extremely damaging to the economy. We need less regulation, not more. Dean also wants to repeal the Bush tax cut. Not just on the rich, but the whole package. That would throw a big wrench into the current economic recovery. Dean’s position on the war on terror is unfathomable. He says he’s not sure if Bin Laden is guilty. He opposed the war in Iraq. Just what in hell would Dean do? It’s not clear. Seeing as this is the most important issue in the election, you’d think he’d actually have, you know, a plan. If he does, he sure hasn’t articulated it well. Can anyone explain Dean’s comprehensive strategy for winning the war on terror? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/97 "2004-01-08T01:20:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > [http://pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm](http://pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm) > Interestingly enough Dean does the best among the Democratic candidates against Bush in the latest CNN poll. 51-46. You misread the link. The **latest** CNN poll show it 59-37. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/98 "2004-01-08T01:41:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > Dean’s position on the war on terror is unfathomable. He says he’s not sure if Bin Laden is guilty. Sam, Dean said that OBL probably _is_ guilty. Stop spinning. > [@](#): > > I’ve resisted pronouncing a sentence before guilt is found. I still have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, **who is very likely to be found guilty** , we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/99 "2004-01-08T01:43:49Z")
Or, as [Atrios](http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_01_04_atrios_archive.html#107352001749561822), points out, Bush agrees with Dean on this point: > [@](#): > > QUESTION: Mr. President, you said earlier this morning that in a trial that all of Saddam’s atrocities need to be brought out. He was in power more than 30 years. It probably would make for a long rap sheet. > > Bush: You’re not supposed to pre-judge. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/100 "2004-01-08T01:46:05Z")
The polls shows the Sadaam capture pushed the popularity for Bush upward, as well it should. But it is still ten months to go, and the media are still giving Bush a free ride. Sooner or later that ride has to be over. It has to be over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024.md?page=6)