# Conservatives say Dean is unelectable. I say they're afraid of him. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024 "2004-01-06T15:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/121 "2004-01-09T02:31:50Z")
Drag him out and shoot him, I’ll file for the warrant later. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/122 "2004-01-09T02:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Sam, it’s amazing that you get all of that from the dribs and drabs of quotes in that interview. It’s impossible to say exactly what Dean means, if anything, from what was presented in that article. And here you are coming to these amazing conclusions out of thin air. Applause – I wish I could read sheep entrails so well! Not just from the interview. Sorry, I piled up stuff that I got from the interview, plus the debates, plus his own web site. John: Oh, he’s pretty specific about the trade stuff too. Not just, “I want fairer, not freer trade” or any of that politico-speak. Here, from [Issues2000.org](http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Free_Trade.htm): > [@](#): > > Q: What about free trade? > A: We’ve gone the first mile. I don’t disagree with the premise of the free traders. But we need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we’re not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements. > > Q: What if they say no? > > A: Then I’d say, “Fine, that’s the end of free trade.” > > Q: What do you mean, that’s the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries? > > A: Yes. > > Q: So you’d be in favor of tariffs at that point. > > A: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can’t get people to observe human rights, and say that we’re going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don’t think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We’re enabling that to happen. Got that? If workers in Indonesia don’t get time and a half for overtime, and OSHA-style safety controls, and their factories don’t meet U.S. environmental standards, then President Dean is going to slap tariffs on them. Awfully unilateral of him, imposing American overtime rules on other countries and all. Then there’s this howler: > [@](#): > > Free trade must equal fair trade. We are subsidizing the sometimes awful environmental practices of our trading partners, and we are subsidizing the profits of multinational corporations by not having international labor standards. He’s got it exactly backwards: If other countries ruin their environments by running dirty factories, and pay they employees very little, THEY are subsidizing YOU. I think Dean is economically illiterate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/123 "2004-01-09T02:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Sam wrote: > He’s got it exactly backwards: If other countries ruin their environments by running dirty factories, and pay they employees very little, THEY are subsidizing YOU. I think Dean is economically illiterate. Yeah. The trick is communicating that to the voters. It’s a hard sell, and we shouldn’t underestimate that. BTW, you can find pretty much the same stuff on his web site. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/124 "2004-01-09T03:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*And if you think outsourcing jobs is a problem now, wait 'till Dean starts enacting all these regulations. Oh, wait: He’s going to end free trade, too, and slap tariffs on companies that outsource jobs. So that means capital flight from the U.S. Smooth moves, Howie. \*\* Gee, and I thought outsourcing was a form of capital flight from the U.S. Oh wait … it is! Guess you free-market types don’t care about capital flight so long as it’s the kind that just costs ordinary people their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/125 "2004-01-09T03:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*_Can anyone remember when the last time a candidate got elected on the promise to **raise** _ taxes? \*And don’t give me the BS that it’s not a tax increase, just eliminating a cut. By that logic, the current cut is not a “cut”, but simply an elimination of a tax increase. I can easily go back in time (not even that far) and find a period when taxes were lower than they are right now. \*\* Yes, Dean is planning to rescind Bush’s big tax break for the wealthy. This will have the effect of raising taxes for the wealthy, and will have little or no effect on anyone else. Wealthy people for whom this is an issue should not vote for Dean. Everyone else SHOULD vote for Dean. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/126 "2004-01-09T03:48:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Q: So you’d be in favor of tariffs at that point. > > A: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can’t get people to observe human rights, and say that we’re going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don’t think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We’re enabling that to happen. \> Got that? If workers in Indonesia don’t get time and a half for overtime, \> and OSHA-style safety controls, and their factories don’t meet U.S. \> environmental standards, then President Dean is going to slap tariffs on \> them. I love the way that Dean’s term “kids” becomes “workers” in your response. I suppose that’s not QUITE lying, but it’s certainly misleading. \> Awfully unilateral of him, imposing American overtime rules on other \> countries and all. Beats sending troops in to conquer the country for no particular reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/127 "2004-01-09T05:28:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I love the way that Dean’s term “kids” becomes “workers” in your response. I suppose that’s not QUITE lying, but it’s certainly misleading. No, it’s not. The kids are the ones who aren’t supposed to work overtime at all. I was referencing the time-and-a-half part that applies to adults. You should read my messages more carefully before throwing around accusations of not-quite-lying. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/128 "2004-01-09T05:34:24Z")
No OP, he is pretty much unelectable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/129 "2004-01-09T06:49:03Z")
[http://www.madkane.com/musichumor.html](http://www.madkane.com/musichumor.html) A lefty humor site that **Scylla** recommended. (No, really!) She has a song parody of Nat King Cole’s “Unforgettable” “Dean’s electable. Dean worries Karl. So electable, Rove’s nails are gnarled. It’s the fear of Rove that Bush he’ll beat, That he’ll send George Dub a huge defeat…” Joe Bob elucidator says “Check it out!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/130 "2004-01-09T22:13:56Z")
Dean’s latest gaffs\* which have come to light point out a weakness that could be his undoing. Yes, these are things he said 4 yrs ago, and can reasonably be downplayed becuase of that. But they point out a flaw that Dean has: **He thinks he’s a lot smarter than he is** , and is prone to making strongly declaritive remarks about things he actually knows little, or nothing, about. Unless he recognizes that he has some big gaps in his knowledge, and begins speaking accordingly, we can probably expect these types of gaffs to continue throughout the campaign. \*can’t find a link, but it’s what is being reported on CNN, etc. about his comments concerning Hamas, the Iowa caucus and other issues. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/131 "2004-01-09T22:26:49Z")
As I said in the other thread, I think this comment might hurt Dean in the caucus but help him in the long run. [Gephardt has said](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/09/elec04.prez.dean.iowa/index.html), “I can’t understand his comments about the special interests dominating the Iowa caucuses.” Is he shitting us? EVERYBODY knows that special interests dominate the caucuses. That’s not even debatable. Everybody knows that candidates play to the special interests during the primaries and then to a general audience during the general election. That’s uncontroversial. How stupid does Gephardt think we are? So sure, some members of the Iowa caucus might be deluding themselves, and get offended. But your average voter, assuming he gets the nomination, will be gratified to hear someone saying what’s plainly true. Let’s look at what he said, exactly, from the same link: > [@](#): > > If you look at the caucuses system, they are dominated by special interests on both sides and both parties. Special interests don’t represent the centrist tendencies of the American people. They tend to represent the extremes. … Say I’m a guy who’s got to work for a living, and I’ve got kids. On a Saturday, is it easy for me to go cast a ballot and spend 15 minutes doing it, or do I have to sit in a caucus for eight hours? I can’t stand there and listen to everyone else’s opinion for eight hours about how to fix the world. Do you see something in there that isn’t 1) completely obvious and 2) completely nonoffensive to the average voter? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/132 "2004-01-09T22:59:19Z")
**LHoD** : I don’t think the Iowa “gaff” has any legs. The Hamas one, might. But my point was not about any particular comment, but his propensity to throw new ones out there all the time. I am theorizing (call it an educated guess) that the cause of this is, as I said above, the fact he thinks he’s smarter than he actually is. That’s not a positive trait in politics. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/133 "2004-01-09T23:23:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\*I’d vote for Michael Jackson if he were running against Bush and looked like he had a chance. \*\* I bet “No Child Left Behind” would get an overhaul. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/134 "2004-01-09T23:33:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*I bet “No Child Left Behind” would get an overhaul. \*\* :D, :D, 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/135 "2004-01-10T00:43:28Z")
**John** , what has he said _in particular_ that makes you think he’s not that smart? Has he said anything notably wrong, or just things that piss you off by being forced to face them, or are you referring only to his political campaign sense? If the latter, this “habit” hasn’t hurt him yet in any measurable way, or _he wouldn’t be the bleedin’ front-runner, would he?_ Isn’t it conceivable that the blunt habit you decry can look to the less-partisan as plain, honest. speaking, and that that just might be part of his _attractiveness_ to a cynical electorate? This comment is not a “new one” as you describe it, but an interview from _four fuckin’ years ago_. Get real. And, before you predict his doom, ponder if Iowans will be more affected by it or by Harkins’ endorsement. I’d bet on the latter. Since you haven’t asked, I’m undecided yet between Dean, Clark, and Edwards, each of whom has his own strong and weak points, but I’d be happy to vote for any of them in November. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/136 "2004-01-10T01:12:00Z")
Just so. Part of the problem is an embarassment of riches. Any of those candidates, and Gephardt as well, would make a good President. When there is one good candidate and a posse of stinkers, the issue is quickly clarified. Well, except for Dukakis, God only knows how…but I digress. It makes me wish there were a nation-wide primary option, or at least some sort of non-binding referendum, just so we could get a better idea what _other_ people think. I’m not so interested in supporting the best candidate, I want to pick the most electable candidate. Kucinich is a splendid fellow, but he looks like he represents Monty Python’s Very Silly Party. I am a long time admirer of Kerry, but he looks like a bi-polar basset hound with his cycle stuck on somber. Shouldn’t matter, but it does, and I know it does. If GeeDubya wins, even if by the flimsiest of margins, he will regard himself as a Leader of Men with a solid Mandate to Lead. Trouble is, he is a profoundly mediocre man with delusions of Churchill. Privilege is seldom kind to character. I don’t know how much the prospect of four more years scares you, and I haven’t the words to express how much it scares _me!_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/137 "2004-01-10T02:00:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > It makes me wish there were a nation-wide primary option, or at least some sort of non-binding referendum, just so we could get a better idea what _other_ people think. I’m not so interested in supporting the best candidate, I want to pick the most electable candidate. Exactamundo. > [@](#): > > Kucinich is a splendid fellow, but he looks like he represents Monty Python’s Very Silly Party. I am a long time admirer of Kerry, but he looks like a bi-polar basset hound with his cycle stuck on somber. Shouldn’t matter, but it does, and I know it does. Bill Maher said Kerry looks like the talking tree in the Wizard of Oz. **Elvis** : Didn’t say he wasn’t smart (I think he is), but that he overestimates it. And please read my post. I specifically said the Iowa comment was old (the newness is it coming out in the press) and that I thought it wouldn’t harm him. Gotta go do some drinking right now-- I’ll come back later and expand on the “smartness” issue. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/138 "2004-01-10T02:24:38Z")
The White House line is that Kerry [“looks French”](http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh050103.shtml). No worse insult than that for some people, huh? Whatever. I can’t see Kerry as Presidential material because he hasn’t done a damn thing as Senator. Gephardt I dismiss because of his protectionism. Kucinich I dismiss because of the circus that was his Cleveland mayoral tenure (which I do remember personally). But they’d still all do a more responsible job than the current officeholder. And Dukakis’ inability to forever hide that he was running only because Kitty wanted to be First Lady is why the GOP’s unbroken losing streak in Presidential elections only goes back to 1988, not 1984. John, I was swayed by your referring to Dean’s “latest gaffes”, although your discussion was of the caucus comment specifically even though it is neither late nor a gaffe. The timing of it is, of course, purely a coincidence only in Cloud Cuckoo Land, but its spreaders remain mysteriously unidentified AFAIK. But, if you want to discuss someone’s behavior pattern, your examples had better add up to that or it would be better not to try, of course. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/139 "2004-01-10T12:30:10Z")
Afraid of Dean? That’s laughable. Rove is a lot more afraid of Edwards, Clark, and Lieberman than Dean. Clark specifically is the last person Rove wants to have to campaign against. Dean’s easy prey. Rove is going to eat him for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024/140 "2004-01-10T13:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > **Let’s look at what he said, exactly, from the same link:** > > > [@](#): > > > > If you look at the caucuses system, they are dominated by special interests on both sides and both parties. Special interests don’t represent the centrist tendencies of the American people. They tend to represent the extremes. … Say I’m a guy who’s got to work for a living, and I’ve got kids. On a Saturday, is it easy for me to go cast a ballot and spend 15 minutes doing it, or do I have to sit in a caucus for eight hours? I can’t stand there and listen to everyone else’s opinion for eight hours about how to fix the world.\*\* > > Do you see something in there that isn’t 1) completely obvious and 2) completely nonoffensive to the average voter? > > Daniel \*\* Well, considering how upset you seem to get when I point out how out of touch the lefties on the SDMB are, you may not be the best judge of what is offensive to “the average voter”. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-say-dean-is-unelectable-i-say-theyre-afraid-of-him/223024.md?page=8)