# Conservatives: why do you support a lying and divisive liberal? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207 "2004-08-30T11:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/21 "2004-08-30T16:11:13Z")
Here I thought that this was going to be about support for the out of the closet liberal running for PotUSA. I had my lesser of two evils speech all ready. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/22 "2004-08-30T16:56:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Again, it was a separation born of ideology. That is not the case today. George Bush has dropped a cleaver right through the heart of America, dividing one against another, not over some noble principle, but over who is fer me and who is agin me. Cry me a river with your indignation. Oh fucking A. Just like every other election I’ve ever encountered. If you think this is as bad as it’s every gotten, then you are (as other posters have often suggested) living in some alternate reality that the rest of us do not share. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/23 "2004-08-30T17:26:14Z")
Oh, what a brave man, hiding behind the cover of others to make his point. If you think this election is like every other election, then you’re a clueless idiot — no matter what others say. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/24 "2004-08-30T17:35:43Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And you needn’t lecture me about 1968. I was there. You were what…13? Didja march on Long Island with your mommy? What the hell is the point of this thread anyway? Cause if it’s yet another attempt at showing how clever you are, it’s yet another flop on your face. Or is this the, “I’m completely non-partisan, look at me, look at me” shit again? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/25 "2004-08-30T17:44:08Z")
> [@Leander](#): > > What the hell is the point of this thread anyway? Well, for you, I’d say that it’s a place for blind maggots to crawl around in darkness and wonder what it’s all about. But for others, like Apos, Bienville, and so on, it’s a place to discuss erudite things — things that are none of your concern. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/26 "2004-08-30T17:56:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, for you, I’d say that it’s a place for blind maggots to crawl around in darkness and wonder what it’s all about. But for others, like Apos, Bienville, and so on, it’s a place to discuss erudite things — things that are none of your concern. Aw, how cute…I must have hit a tender spot. So Grandpa, how old were you in 1968? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/27 "2004-08-30T17:58:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oh, what a brave man, hiding behind the cover of others to make his point. If you think this election is like every other election, then you’re a clueless idiot — no matter what others say. OK, you’ve convinced me. I now no longer support lying and divisive Liberals. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/28 "2004-08-30T18:07:26Z")
**Liberal** , can you please offer some evidence that liberals (the real kind) dismiss the negative ramifications of the PATRIOT Act? 'Cause I have seen none of my fellow libs who doesn’t think it’s the first step on a very slippery stairwell towards the possible removal of our civil liberties and constitutional rights. And as for: > [@Liberal](#): > > I mean liberal in the Rawlsian sense, a blend of religious faith and rational intuition underpinning the notion that government, by its planning and action, can aleviate the suffering of people. See [John Rawls and the Liberal Faith](http://wwics.si.edu/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.print&essay_id=8468&stoplayout=true), by Peter Berkowitz, for an overview. Okay, so first you use one obscure definition of ‘liberal’ for your screenname, and now you find another to define Bush. Wouldn’t it be wiser, when conversing with the regular folks, to use the word’s widely accepted meaning? Or would that take away from your iconoclastic street cred? 😉 Puts me in mind of this famous bit from Lewis Carroll’s _Through the Looking-Glass_: > [@](#): > > “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory’,” Alice said. > > Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t - till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’” > > “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected. > > “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.” > > “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” > > “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master - that’s all.” In any event, Bush and his administration/consultants are neither liberal nor conservative. They are best defined (politically) as neo-conservatives, aka jingoistic, hawkish empire-builders who spend money for military purposes like it’s going out of style, and who couldn’t give a rat’s ass about either social issues or the rights of other cultures to choose their own form of government. A bunch of them (James Baker, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, among others) are behind the creepy Project for a New American Century thinktank, which supports invading and “democritizing” just about every Middle East country except Israel, which they hold sacrosanct. (Not for love of Jews, mind you, although many of the earliest neocons were Jewish former liberals themselves.) This is also where Bush’s religious beliefs come into play. Research Christian Zionism to see why so many of the Religious Right looooove the neocon movement. True conservatives should quake in their boots regarding Bush. And many do, to their credit. Blind loyalists do their beliefs no good, and their country even less. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/29 "2004-08-30T18:38:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > At least during the WONA, people didn’t blindly hate each other. They fought for principle… some noble principle… “WONA”? “Principle”? Stuff like this is seriously going to hurt your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/30 "2004-08-30T20:25:20Z")
Credibility? What credibility? He says shit like, “And you needn’t lecture me about 1968. I was there”, when he was **only thirteen years old at the time**. What a silly little fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/31 "2004-08-30T20:33:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I believe I mentioned Jefferson Davis. At least during the WONA, people didn’t blindly hate each other. They fought for principle. And you needn’t lecture me about 1968. I was there. Again, it was a separation born of ideology. That is not the case today. George Bush has dropped a cleaver right through the heart of America, dividing one against another, not over some noble principle, but over who is fer me and who is agin me. Cry me a river with your indignation. Oh, bullshit. Since the 2000 election, liberals have done nothing but whine and lie about the man, every single chance they get, and the biggest lie they tell is that Bush lied. It ain’t Bush that dropped the cleaver, dude. That fault lies squarely at the liberals’ doorstep. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/32 "2004-08-30T21:22:40Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You were what…13? Didja march on Long Island with your mommy? I was there too, schmuck, in fact I worked for the Conservative Party of New York in 1968. (the NYC school strike gave me plenty of free time.) **Lib** is absolutely correct. People disagreed, strongly, but Richard Nixon, yes, Richard Nixon, did not besmirch Humphrey’s name. Even George Wallace ran a cleaner campaign than Bush is. I disagree that Bush is a liberal, and I agree with you that Bush isn’t a conservative either. Bush has no consistent political philosophy that I can see. He’s driven by the winds of the special interests, his desire for power and revenge, and his religious conviction of divine inspiration. There are plenty of statists who aren’t liberals - Bush might claim not to be one, to appeal to conservatives, but it is obvious from the past four years that he is a statist through and through - with the dangerous addition of not wanting to respect any limits to the power of the state that he can dispense with. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/33 "2004-08-30T21:39:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I believe I mentioned Jefferson Davis. At least during the WONA “WONA”? You mean that someone actually uses the term “War of Northern Aggression” seriously? I thought that was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/34 "2004-08-30T21:52:51Z")
Well I’ve reached the point where I no longer give a fuck about his politics. The fact that he’s a pathological liar and probably a sociopath, who appears to be entirely incapable of sophisticated thought, is enough to scare the hell out of me. I can’t think of a single other president who was so entirely wrong for the job. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/35 "2004-08-30T22:06:55Z")
> [@Choie](#): > > Liberal, can you please offer some evidence that liberals (the real kind) dismiss the negative ramifications of the PATRIOT Act? 'Cause I have seen none of my fellow libs who doesn’t think it’s the first step on a very slippery stairwell towards the possible removal of our civil liberties and constitutional rights. I’m very glad to hear that. Frankly, I probably shouldn’t form my impressions of modern liberals from some of the posts I see here. Your name invokes the familiarity of past kindness. I’m willing to take you at your word. > [@](#): > > Okay, so first you use one obscure definition of ‘liberal’ for your screenname, and now you find another to define Bush. Wouldn’t it be wiser, when conversing with the regular folks, to use the word’s widely accepted meaning? Or would that take away from your iconoclastic street cred? Perhaps. Then again, it might not hurt any of us to broaden our education and eradicate our ignorance about liberalism, its history, and its rich variety. Barring certain obvious exceptions, I am loathe to think of Dopers as just regular folks. > [@](#): > > In any event, Bush and his administration/consultants are neither liberal nor conservative. They are best defined (politically) as neo-conservatives, aka jingoistic, hawkish empire-builders who spend money for military purposes like it’s going out of style, and who couldn’t give a rat’s ass about either social issues or the rights of other cultures to choose their own form of government. A bunch of them (James Baker, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, among others) are behind the creepy Project for a New American Century thinktank, which supports invading and “democritizing” just about every Middle East country except Israel, which they hold sacrosanct. (Not for love of Jews, mind you, although many of the earliest neocons were Jewish former liberals themselves.) This is also where Bush’s religious beliefs come into play. Research Christian Zionism to see why so many of the Religious Right looooove the neocon movement. Excellent and compelling points. I believe that I was mistaken to characterize Bush even as a Rawlsian liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/36 "2004-08-30T22:08:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “WONA”? You mean that someone actually uses the term “War of Northern Aggression” seriously? I thought that was a joke. Did you believe that the post I responded to deserved some sort of seriousness? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/37 "2004-08-30T22:44:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Did you believe that the post I responded to deserved some sort of seriousness? Actually, yes. My post seriously questioned whether you had lost all sense of perspective and/or had any background in U.S. history whatsoever. You made an unambiguous claim in your OP that the country had \* never \* been more polarized. I gave a few examples where the country had clearly been more polarized. I could give more. There were people who thought Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the devil incarnate – one of the most common phrases you find in his biographies on the web is that he was at once the most loved and most hated President. I’d call that “polarized”. If you can’t even defend the first sentence of your OP, why should any of us give it or you any serious consideration? Your OP is a hysterical overstatement and your response to my post is an embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/38 "2004-08-30T22:57:08Z")
FDR _was_ the devil incarnate, who ruined everything accomplished by America’s greatest 20th century president, Herbert Hoover. Plus, I rebutted your examples. Though you will deny it, there is a difference between a division born of principle, and a division born of hate. There are, in fact, many differences, not the least of which is that people divided by principle may at least respect one another. Bush said plainly that whoever does not stand with him in his hegemonic quest stands against him. It is either or. It is patriot or traitor. It is Bush’s delusion versus the rest of the world. If you’ve seen this before, it was in China in the 1970s, or the Soviet Union in the 1930s, or France in the early 1800s. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/39 "2004-08-30T23:10:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Actually, if you’d dump your social authoritarianism, and if modern liberals would dump their fiscal authoritarianism, we’d all be one big happy family. 😛 That sure as hell looks like a plan to me. Where do I sign up, and which candidate has any shot in hell of winning in the next ten years? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/40 "2004-08-30T23:30:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > FDR _was_ the devil incarnate, who ruined everything accomplished by America’s greatest 20th century president, Herbert Hoover. Plus, I rebutted your examples. _“And you needn’t lecture me about 1968. I was there. Again, it was a separation born of ideology.”_ is **not** a rebuttal. At best, it’s a statement of opinion. For a guy who will devote pages to mathematical proofs on God’s existence, you have a mighty casual approach to debate. Tell me how it was different. In 1968, people were protesting an unpopular war in which tens of thousands of US soldiers died. In 2004, people are protesting an unpopular war in which about a thousand US soldiers died. In 1968, one big issue was civil rights. In 2004, it’s gay marriage and civil rights. How is this not an ideological chasm? Tell me, if there are no principles involved in this election, then what’s the source of the hate? Did the President just wake up one day and say, “You know what would polarize the nation exactly 50%? Hate. Let’s do it.”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207.md?page=3)