# Conservatives: why do you support a lying and divisive liberal? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207 "2004-08-30T11:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/41 "2004-08-31T01:47:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, for you, I’d say that it’s a place for blind maggots to crawl around in darkness and wonder what it’s all about. Would Jesus call a confused listener a maggot? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/42 "2004-08-31T03:02:22Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I mean liberal in the Rawlsian sense…\ > [@Liberal](#): > > FDR _was_ the devil incarnate, who ruined everything accomplished by America’s greatest 20th century president, Herbert Hoover. I’d like to suggest a new name that pretty much sums up your political stance - **[Contrarian](http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00312557?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=contrarian&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10)**. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlight\_Drive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Moonlight\_Drive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlight_Drive)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/43 "2004-08-31T03:38:34Z")
Hello Liberal. I am just glad that you admitted that Bush is a liberal. He is a fricking liberal on most issues. Bush had better thank God that 9-11 appeared, or else his ass would have been run out of town on a rail. Who am I voting for? Now Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlight\_Drive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Moonlight\_Drive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlight_Drive)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/44 "2004-08-31T03:42:20Z")
> [@Moonlight Drive](#): > > Hello Liberal. > > I am just glad that you admitted that Bush is a liberal. He is a fricking liberal on most issues. Bush had better thank God that 9-11 appeared, or else his ass would have been run out of town on a rail. Who am I voting for? Now Bush. Oops! I meant NOT Bush ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/45 "2004-08-31T06:42:48Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Would Jesus call a confused listener a maggot? Hunh. Not likely, the bleeding heart pacifist pansy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/46 "2004-08-31T06:58:45Z")
> [@gatopescado](#): > > “WONA”? “Principle”? > > Stuff like this is seriously going to hurt your credibility. Nope. For that to happen he’d actually have to HAEV credibility in the first place. I mean, c’mon, when he says stuff like, > [@](#): > > FDR was the devil incarnate, who ruined everything accomplished by America’s greatest 20th century president, Herbert Hoover. It’s pretty damned hard to take him seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/47 "2004-08-31T10:13:55Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Tell me how it was different. In 1968, people were protesting an unpopular war in which tens of thousands of US soldiers died. In 2004, people are protesting an unpopular war in which about a thousand US soldiers died. In 1968, one big issue was civil rights. In 2004, it’s gay marriage and civil rights. How is this not an ideological chasm? Is this some exercize to see who can construct the cleverest converse accident fallacies? Well, you know, both Lincoln and Kennedy were assassinated on Friday in the presence of their wives. Both assassins were Southerners who held extremist views. Both assassins were murdered before they could be brought to trial. The first name of Lincoln’s private secretary was John, the last name of Kennedy’s private secretary was Lincoln. Lincoln and Kennedy each has seven letters. As I’ve said from the beginning, Bush has _defined_ today’s schism as hate — people who are against him hate America. Whoever does not stand with him stands against him. It is he against the world. Those who protested against Johnson’s administration _were his own people_ — Democrats, disenfranchised Blacks, women, and yes, gays. That’s when “gay” came popularly to mean homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/48 "2004-08-31T10:19:06Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Would Jesus call a confused listener a maggot? He called a few “snakes” and “vipers”. But one thing He surely would not do is continue to ask a question of a man who has at last explained why the question distresses him. That’s why you won’t ever hear the question from me again. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/49 "2004-08-31T14:32:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Is this some exercize to see who can construct the cleverest converse accident fallacies? Well, you know, both Lincoln and Kennedy were assassinated on Friday in the presence of their wives. Both assassins were Southerners who held extremist views. Both assassins were murdered before they could be brought to trial. The first name of Lincoln’s private secretary was John, the last name of Kennedy’s private secretary was Lincoln. Lincoln and Kennedy each has seven letters. Hmm. On the one hand we have a very succinct and compelling case made by **Finagle** as well as the notion (to me, anyway) that time tends to cycle through the same general pattern. On the other hand we have this post by you, **Lib** , which is at best a redaction of glurge that any fifth-grader with a brain could tell was a list of coincidences. I’ma hafta sleep on this one. I’m still trying to figure out how the bleeding fuck Bush is a liberal except in the “he isn’t a traditional republican” sense, but if we’re going by that sense then the Senate is made up of a whole bunch of fiscally liberal social conservative republicans, and I’m not sure I see that… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/50 "2004-08-31T14:55:17Z")
Pun First, I’ve already conceded that I was mistaken in labeling Bush a liberal. Please see my post to Choie that says in part > [@](#): > > Excellent and compelling points. I believe that I was mistaken to characterize Bush even as a Rawlsian liberal. Second, if you want to ponder my argument with Finagle, then please consider the pertinent portion (the portion you did not quote), which described the differences between 2004 and 1968, despite whatever superficial similarities there might be, and said in part > [@](#): > > Bush has defined today’s schism as hate — people who are against him hate America. Whoever does not stand with him stands against him. It is he against the world. Those who protested against Johnson’s administration were his own people — Democrats, disenfranchised Blacks, women, and yes, gays. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/51 "2004-08-31T15:31:33Z")
Dear Liberal, In my garden is a stately globe willow. For as long as I can remember, she has stood as a shield against the hot summer sun and as a whispering screen to the western winds. Floodwaters cannot move the earth in her grasp. Her branches provide tinder and fuel, medicines and remedies, antiseptic mulch, insect repellants. She repairs, without complaint, much of the harm that I cause the air. Her beauty and promise are unmatched. From afar, she stands as an example of strength, and her reach and symmetry are awe-inspiring. From near, in the shade of her comfort and security, every emerald leaf inspires daydreams of peace, and the lyrics of freedom. My willow’s former caretakers were neglectful. As the tree grew, unattended and unimpeded, massive networks of branches pulled against each other, until finally, a crack formed at the notch of her limbs. Seasons passed and the fissure grew deeper and longer. To bind the two sides, her trunk was girdled with wires and rude straps, and over the years, more and more were added, cutting ever deeper into her flesh. The willow is now under my care, and mine is an almost impossible position. On the one hand, the divide is severe and hardened, and will surely split her. On the other, the man-made strictures are slowly strangling her essence, twisting her form into a knobbly perversion of her former splendor. I am filled with utter dread at that dangerous cleft, and because of my fear, I cannot attack that which is truly killing her. I cannot cut these artificial ties. I cannot make her free again. _Partisanship is tyrants’ tonic. A splintering Republic is mended only with the garrote_. Very truly yours, El Cid ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/52 "2004-08-31T15:46:03Z")
El Cid, you truly are the Kahlil Gibran of freedom loving men. Even as I engage in the futility of my foolishness, I know you are right. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/53 "2004-08-31T16:10:59Z")
Such praise should be reserved for my Muse. You, and men like you, are the fire in my heart and the reason in my words. And there is no futility in this struggle, for without You, the tree is bare. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207/54 "2004-08-31T18:47:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m very glad to hear that. Frankly, I probably shouldn’t form my impressions of modern liberals from some of the posts I see here. Your name invokes the familiarity of past kindness. I’m willing to take you at your word. I do appreciate that, sir. Of course, I can’t speak for the other liberals here – I don’t think I’ve seen any Doper libs who find PATRIOT a minor inconvenience, but that might be because I don’t read GD as often as I should. But yes, I promise you that the administration’s insidious erosion of our civil liberties is one of the top concerns most of the liberals I know have about a second term Bush presidency. Especially since without the threat of a looming re-election, a lame duck Bush will be unfettered by political constraints. He’d be one scary mo-fo. To back up my assertion re: liberals, here are some articles from some of the lefty/liberal communities and individuals who’ve spoken against PATRIOT: [Repeal the PATRIOT Act](http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.02A.JVB.Patriot.htm) – Part one in a series of articles delving into PATRIOT by the editor of _[TruthOut.org](http://TruthOut.org)_, the liberal online magazine. You can get the gist of their opinion by checking out the description: > [@](#): > > Part I of this series states briefly why we should demand the immediate repeal or amendment of the USA Patriot Act. > > Part II walks the reader back in time to look at two acts, which were also passed hastily and in a time of fear. The Alien & Sedition Acts of 1798 parallel the USA Patriot Act in many respects, and offer some important warnings. > > Part III discusses the recent emergence of troubling evidence of violations of civil rights under the USA Patriot Act, and looks at the disturbing possibility of torture being used. > > Parts IV and V look at specific sections of the Act. Part IV covers how the Act mixes criminal law and foreign intelligence work, puts the CIA back in the business of spying on Americans, allows law enforcement to enter your home without you knowing it, and can track your emails and internet activity. Part V will discuss how the Act punishes some people for engaging in innocent First Amendment associational activity, violates other civil rights of immigrants, uses secret evidence, curbs judicial oversight, and invades financial and student records. > > Part VI discusses national security concerns, sums up, and closes with a potent exhortation to Americans, made over 200 years ago by Senator Edward Livingston. Another liberal take on PATRIOT is [How Far Will They Go?](http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/06/p/03_far.html) – An editorial from _Democratic Underground_, the largest and most well-known online community for Dems/liberals. [A Dreadful Act](http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0213-09.htm) – From [CommonDreams.org](http://CommonDreams.org), which is basically a library of progressive news stories. This is a reprint of an article from the _LA Times_); similarly, you might be interested in the _Times_’ account of Al Gore’s speech, in which [Gore Urges Repeal of PATRIOT Act](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1110-01.htm). [Bush Calls For Renewal of Patriot Act](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/21/1632210&tid=25#transcript) – From _Democracy Now_, An extremely well-regarded daily radio & TV news program broadcast on NPR, the liberal Pacifica radio network, and community TV stations. This is a transcript of journalist Amy Goodman’s interview with an ACLU exec. I could go on, but I’m sure you get the drift. To put it briefly, and admittedly with less picturesque and articulate verbiage than **El Cid** offers: We think PATRIOT sucks. > [@](#): > > Perhaps. Then again, it might not hurt any of us to broaden our education and eradicate our ignorance about liberalism, its history, and its rich variety. Barring certain obvious exceptions, I am loathe to think of Dopers as just regular folks. Good point, I’ll concede that! 🙂 > [@](#): > > Excellent and compelling points. I believe that I was mistaken to characterize Bush even as a Rawlsian liberal. Woohoo! Thanks, **Liberal**. Very graciously put. Maybe your headline should’ve read, _Conservatives: Why vote for Bush, when he’s betrayed so many of your core values?_ Actually, the more I contemplate this, the more I think Bush is almost impossible to categorize – truth is, I don’t believe he’s even all that politically ideological. What guides his views most is a combination of his religious zealotry, sense of entitlement, rigid arrogance, and utter lack of curiosity. It’s the others in his coterie who are the true neocon ideologues, and even their ideology holds a backseat to their mercenary ambitions. IMO, they’re the ones we freedom-loving individuals need to worry about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-why-do-you-support-a-lying-and-divisive-liberal/262207.md?page=2)