# Conservatives, would we be better off without the religious right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741 "2001-09-20T04:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/21 "2001-09-20T13:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*You mean like [this one](http://www.constitutionparty.org/)? \*\* No, I was thinking more like the Taliban. šŸ˜‰ Whatever you guys decide, weā€™re not taking them back. The Democratic Party has been shut of those guys for forty years and we LIKE it this way. But without the Religious Right and the Lunatic Left, what would we have to separate us, issues? Even then, weā€™ll just end up sounding like a bunch of moderates and we all know how boring moderates are. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/22 "2001-09-20T13:32:14Z")
I would be happt to do away with the right altogether. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/23 "2001-09-20T13:51:19Z")
Like [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88405). This seemed to be worthy of a thread of its own; Iā€™d been thinking of starting a thread on this anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/24 "2001-09-20T13:53:38Z")
Just to make it clear, I was talking about the Duke/Sharpton/Falwell thing, as opposed to the question raised by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/25 "2001-09-20T13:57:16Z")
I think of myself as conservative-sympathizing, though I donā€™t know that Iā€™m entitled to call myself a conservative.\* I do not know if the Republican party would be politically strengthened if it parted ways with the likes of Falwell, Robertson, and Bauer. If such a thing is done, though, it should not be on the basis of religious belief, but of policy. If the Republican party cut out everybody who had religious beliefs against abortion and homosexuality, and gave voice to those beliefs, it could not possibly survive. But the Republicans could survive without the people who think they have the right to make those religious beliefs the foundation of national policy and law; thatā€™s not to say the Republicans would be politically better off, but they could still compete. Anyway, I do not believe that now is the time for the Republicans to decide this. This moment calls for national unity, not separation. Right now Republicans and Democrats need to focus on working with each other to defeat the terrorist threat; both parties can worry later about purging themselves of radicals. * * * \*For those who wish to classify me, these are my credentials to be called a conservative: pro-2nd Amendment, anti-affirmative action, in favor of strong defense, prefer starkly limited social spending, in favor of low taxes at all income levels, prefer limited environmental protections enforced more by the states and the judicial system than by the federal government and the executive branch, favor reduction in both military and economic foreign aid, and cast about 8 Republican votes for every 2 Democratic votes. I leave it to you to determine if I can still be conservative as an atheist, a hesitant pro-choicer, and a supporter of equal rights under the law, including marriage, for gays. ---
**Author:** ![dlb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@dlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dlb)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/26 "2001-09-20T15:38:14Z")
Boy, this is the second time today Iā€™ve tried to quote two messages. What fun! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5-HT \* > This is a subject which I have thought about for awhile, but the recent comments of Fallwell and Robertson have brought it bact to the front of my thoughts. Would the Conservatives among us, and of course the Republican Party, be better off if we cut ties with the ā€œreligious rightā€? Would we gain enough in moderate votes to make up for this group that polarizes so many against us? Personally, as a conservative, I am tired of making excuses, and apologizing for this group that does not speak for me, yet is so connected to my party by the general public. As much as I hate to politicize(is that a word?) the recent tragedy, Is this our chance to kick these reactionaries out of our party? And you intend to accomplish this exactly how? Loyalty tests? Pledges saying, ā€œI will never say a good word about Falwell or Robertson?ā€ Truth squads that kick anyone out of the Republican party that disagrees with you? Now **thatā€™s** a nice, conservative solution. Sorry, you are not the king of the world ā€” or even the party. Anyone who wants to play, can. If your friends cannot understand one of the basic facts of politics ā€” that a party is a big thing and that people who disagree on some very important issues can nevertheless agree with each other on a sufficient number of issues that they come together for mutual benefit ā€” then I suggest you either educate them, or reserve your political discussions for grown-ups. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > Iā€™ve said it before. Two parties are not enough. YES, the Republicans would be better off ā€“ and the religious right would be better off ā€“ if the relig. right split off and formed a separate party. Probably there are more then two separate parties now confined within each of the ā€œbig twoā€. I donā€™t see any chance of any splits occuring, however. Oh yes, do that. Splinter the Republican party into ten or twelve smaller ones. The Democrats will come and kiss your hairy cheek and call you blessed, even Saint. The Republicans will cease to exist as any kind of effective political force, and Democrats will rule the earth (or at least the US). The reason that parties come together, even when members disagree on basic issues, is that they can form enough common ground to get things done in the common area. When the area outside that common ground grows so large as to offend your personal integrity, leave. But the major parties are where things get decided, and where the real political power lies. The way around this is to join one of the parties, band together with like minded individuals within the party, and start to influence things. What you seem to think should happen overall, outside the parties, happens within the parties. Primary battles, committees, platform struggles, funding drives ā€” all of these are the tools. But you have to get in the game to play. Kibitzers can kibitz, but not effect things. Sooner or later it all comes down to getting your people elected. I thought about joining the Libertarian party ā€” Virginia has a large branch. Then I saw how effective they were, and decided to dedicate my effort elsewhere. By all means, start your own party. Take over a small one if you like, as Pat Buchanan did last election. Play in your own sandbox. Have fun. But donā€™t expect to have a real big effect on the world. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/27 "2001-09-20T15:40:03Z")
It would be political suicide to cut off the religous right from the Republican party. Each party is energized by its most fervent adherents. A political party guts are those in it most motivated to help. For a political party to succeed it needs a base of people willing to do the grunt work of politics, manning phone banks, stuffing envelopes, and going door to door. These people are motivated by ideology and if a party loses its ideological edge it loses its guts. Think of how many thousands the ā€œmarch for lifeā€ draws each year versus how many the ā€œmarch for indexing capital tax rates to inflationā€ draws. I understand that many in the GOP are uncomfortable with the religous right because they are NOTD but they must decide whether it is more important to win elections and serve our country or feel less awkward at cocktail parties. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/28 "2001-09-20T15:45:36Z")
**NaSultainne** a couple of things: > [@](#): > > No, the conservative religious segment is a sincere and positive part of the party as a whole. Religion is seldom the problem in fact, itā€™s the human expression of it. Try a history book start with teh Crusades continue through the Taliban and cone back with a report. > [@](#): > > For example, can anyone give an honest refutation of the ten commandments? Does anyone dispute the value of moral imperatives such as these? I doubt it. Gaudere gave one, I van add more if you like. For just about all but three, I can think of a several reasons why a person would object to it. > [@](#): > > If there is nothing beyond the here and now, oneā€™s incentive to do good is removed. This never fails to amaze me. Briefly, morality and religion are not conditional on each other. **pldennison** you wrote: > [@](#): > > I think I can state absolutely unequivocally that the day the Democrats declaim Sharpton and his sheepā€™s-clothing counterpart Jackson, they will lose an enormous percentage of the African-American vote that makes them so powerful in urban precincts Didnā€™t we have this arguement a few months ago? You can state that as many times as youā€™d like but that wonā€™t make it true. I challenge you to prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/29 "2001-09-20T16:52:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > Is there inconsistency in changing the word ā€œDukeā€ to the word ā€œFalwellā€ in consecutive sentences? Not really. Why do you think so? > [@](#): > > In any case, if people like Al Sharpton donā€™t control the Democrats or their agenda, please explain why Hillary Clinton felt it necessary to meet with him to win her Senate election. Thereā€™s a difference between influence and control, as Iā€™m sure you know. Thereā€™s also a difference between many state-level parties and their national counterparts. Or did you intend that comment as a straw bogeyman? > [@](#): > > I think I can state absolutely unequivocally that the day the Democrats declaim Sharpton and his sheepā€™s-clothing counterpart Jackson, they will lose an enormous percentage of the African-American vote that makes them so powerful in urban precincts On what do you base your perception of the influence in the (huge) community of black voters? > [@](#): > > just so, the day the Republicans declaim Falwell and Robertson, there will be an enormous loss of votes from the traditional-values folks in the heartland. Nice use of code words there: Traditional, values, heartland. Good old Republicans, the true Americans, huh? Sheesh. This thread started with an OP request _not_ to get into partisan bashing. Nice going, pal. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/30 "2001-09-20T17:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > Is there inconsistency in changing the word ā€œDukeā€ to the word ā€œFalwellā€ in consecutive sentences? > > Not really. Why do you think so?\*\* Um, because they arenā€™t the same person, nor are they spelled alike. > [@](#): > > Thereā€™s a difference between influence and control, as Iā€™m sure you know. Thereā€™s also a difference between many state-level parties and their national counterparts. Or did you intend that comment as a straw bogeyman? OK, then explain why Jackson is always invited to speak at the Democratic conventions, and explain why you donā€™t think there would be any fallout in national elections if he was not invited to do so. > [@](#): > > Nice use of code words there: Traditional, values, heartland. Good old Republicans, the true Americans, huh? Donā€™t put words in my mouth, kiddo. In fact, to paraphrase Harvey Keitel, if you even _dream_ about putting words in my mouth, youā€™d better wake up and apologize. I use the terms ā€œtraditional-values folksā€ in the most sarcastic and ironic of ways. And, for your edification, I am going to explain this to you for the 10,000th time, so that perhaps it will sink in for once: **I have never voted for a Republican candidate in my life. I have never been a member of the Republican Party. Except for the most recent Presidential election, I have always voted for the Democratic candidate. I always vote for Democrats at the state and local levels, except in the rare cases where I vote for independents.** Do you get it yet, or do you need it in writing. > [@](#): > > \*\*Sheesh. This thread started with an OP request _not_ to get into partisan bashing. Nice going, pal. \*\* Er . . . if anyone got into partisan bashing, itā€™s you, since I specifically mentioned prominent but loony elements from **both** parties that it is nevertheless dangerous for them to declaim. You, in return, accused me of thinking that Republicans were the only true Americans. Really, are you ever going to get past debating in this manner, or is it something pathological, or is English not your first language, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/31 "2001-09-20T18:03:02Z")
**Not this Time** Put up or shut up! You made a claim, back it up **pldennison** You can make all the if/then equations you like, but Iā€™m asking for facts like: A petition form at least 51% of Black Americans saying theyā€™ll bolt the democratic party if it disassociates itself form Jackson. A similar letter regarding the DNC A poll citing near unanimous support for JJ and Sharpton among AA and or the DNC. You know a cite of some kind to back your _absolutely unequivocal_ opinion. Or a retraction of your statement. Iā€™ll be waiting. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/32 "2001-09-20T18:28:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuffinb \* > **A petition form at least 51% of Black Americans saying theyā€™ll bolt the democratic party if it disassociates itself form Jackson.** Gee, that should be real easy to come by. Can I have a few months to collect signatures? And since 100% of Black Americans are not members of the Democratic Party, can I limit it only to Black Democrats? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > A similar letter regarding the DNC > > A poll citing near unanimous support for JJ and Sharpton among AA and or the DNC. :rolleyes: again. I canā€™t imagine that anyone seriously questions that for the Democrats to disassociate from Jesse Jackson would be political suicide among a huge proportion of their core of urban black voters, but Iā€™ll get you some information just as soon as Iā€™m inclined to do some research. I mean really, folks, is this a matter of some controversyā€“that the Democrats have to court Jackson or risk losing a lot of black votes (not to the opposing candidate, but losing them period)? Am I out on a limb with this? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/33 "2001-09-20T18:52:55Z")
I canā€™t imagine why youā€™re using smilies. I mean youā€™re absolutely sure youā€™re right, so you must have some access to information that leads you to believe that your opinion is the correct one. It seems to me that these arguments in GD require citation to back up suppositions. Otherwise it belongs in IMHO. I mean really folks, isnā€™t that how we do things here? So for the third time: Cite support for your statement or retract it. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/34 "2001-09-20T19:09:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuffinb \* > \*\*I canā€™t imagine why youā€™re using smilies. \*\* Iā€™m sure you canā€™t. I mean, demanding the kind of proof that neither I nor any other living human being could possibly be in possession of ā€“ who could roll their eyes at that? > [@](#): > > I mean youā€™re absolutely sure youā€™re right, so you must have some access to information that leads you to believe that your opinion is the correct one. Pardon me, but did I not just say, " . . . Iā€™ll get you some information just as soon as Iā€™m inclined to do some research"? Iā€™m pretty sure I did. _checks above_ Yep, I did. Wow. I mean, if youā€™re going to stay glued to the SD waiting, youā€™re going to get very hungry. Perhaps you keep **everything youā€™ve ever seen or read** on a small shelf by your computer (and I suspect it would probably _fit_ on a small shelf), but I do not. Hey, if it turns out Iā€™m wrong ā€“ if the DNC is not worried about losing black votes, and instead keeps inviting Jesse to speak at _every convention_ just for shits and giggles ā€“ Iā€™ll happily retract it. But Iā€™m not going to retract it just because you donā€™t like it, thatā€™s for damn sure. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/35 "2001-09-20T19:42:51Z")
well stuffinb did ask for one type of evidence that can be found, Percentage of black americans who support Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. This:[http://www.bampac.org/polldata/2001/Interview.pdf](http://www.bampac.org/polldata/2001/Interview.pdf) is a poll of black americans on politics and it found Jesse Jackson was the most popular Black politician amoung black people with an 83% favorable rating and a 12% unfavorable rating. Al Sharpton is the third most popular black politician with 54% and 16% favorable/unfoavorable ratings. 83% is not unanimous but it is very popular. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/36 "2001-09-20T19:49:02Z")
**In other words you canā€™t back up that statement**. Your feigned outrage doesnā€™t impress me. See puddleglums response after yours. See thatā€™s a citation. Although I wonder about itā€™s methodology not having looked at it yet. Anyhoo, Iā€™ll keep looking for this thread to be bumped, though I wonā€™t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/37 "2001-09-20T20:00:06Z")
**puddleglum** I canā€™t get the webpage you mentioned to come up, can you direct me to the main page of that website? I do have acrobat btw. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/38 "2001-09-20T20:01:46Z")
Look, son, if you want to pick a fight with me, thereā€™s a forum for that sort of thing, and I will gladly meet you there whenever you want. Start a thread, and Iā€™ll be there. In the meantime, Iā€™m not _quite_ certain who you suppose you are that you can demand I drop everything and conduct research _rightnowgoddamnit_, but whoever it is, I assure you you are wrong. It is a wide, wide gulf from ā€œhave not looked anything up yetā€ to ā€œcannot defend your statement.ā€ When I get to it, Iā€™ll get to it, and rest assured you will be the first person I notify whatever the outcome. Can I have your home phone number, so you can absolutely be the first to know? BTW, I am neither experiencing nor feigning outrage. You, Iā€™m afraid, are hardly worth the expenditure of energy for either. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/39 "2001-09-20T20:14:01Z")
The article I tried to link to is in pdf format, but if you plug the url into google they can do a text translation of it. I found other polls that had higher approval ratings for Jesse Jackson but that study included Sharpton and includes verbatim the questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741/40 "2001-09-20T20:17:38Z")
Well excuse me! I have seen the request for cites in virtually every debate in Great Debates. Why my request should be treated with scorn is unfathomable. You keep coming back without answers, not I. The fact that I keep repeating it, is in direct response to your continual post expressing surprise that someone would ask you to back up a statement in GD with a cite. My e-mail address is in my profile; a phone call is quite unnecessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservatives-would-we-be-better-off-without-the-religious-right/82741.md?page=3)