# Conspiracy theories: Why the outlandish ones that don't even sound remotely real? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 26, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360 "2020-07-26T03:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![EnolaStraight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@EnolaStraight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnolaStraight)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/81 "2021-02-28T15:52:01Z")
Outlandish Conspiracy Theorists? Simple answer: attention whores who like to hear themselves talk. Complex answer: sow seeds of doubt in order to create division–\>sectarian polarization–\>political power. As CT-ish as _that_ must sound, there is historical precedent: Today’s Sunni/Shia mess in the middle East wasn’t a thing until Ayatollah Khomeini made it one. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/82 "2021-03-01T11:16:15Z")
This conspiracy theory turned out to be true. " **Project MKUltra** (or **MK-Ultra** ), also called the **CIA mind control program** , is the code name given to a program of experiments on human subjects that were designed and undertaken by the U.S. [Central Intelligence Agency](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency), some of which were illegal.[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-1)[[2]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-2)[[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-3) Experiments on humans were intended to identify and develop drugs and procedures to be used in interrogations in order to weaken the individual and force confessions through [mind control](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control). The project was organized through the [Office of Scientific Intelligence The operation was officially sanctioned in 1953, reduced in scope in 1964 and further curtailed in 1967. It was officially halted in 1973. The program also engaged in illegal activities,[[7]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-7)[[8]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-8)[[9]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-9) including the use of U.S. and Canadian citizens as its unwitting test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.]([Office of Scientific Intelligence - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Scientific_Intelligence)) of the CIA and coordinated with the [United States Army Biological Warfare Laboratories](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Biological_Warfare_Laboratories).[[4]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-4) Other code names for drug-related experiments were [Project Bluebird](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Bluebird) and [Project Artichoke](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Artichoke).[[5]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-5)[[6]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-6) Another cite: In total, the agency conducted 149 separate mind control experiments, and as many as 25 involved unwitting subjects, according to the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/10/us/sidney-gottlieb-80-dies-took-lsd-to-cia.html), “which says documents show at least one participant died. Others suffered long-term health issues, including amnesia, as a result of these tests.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/83 "2021-03-01T16:22:59Z")
Also: extreme outlandishness, paradoxically, gives more resistance to debunkment among the followership. Extreme CTers use a reverse evidentiary principle: rather than “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”, they operate on the basis of “extraordinary claims require extraordinary _refutation_”; the disproof has to be on _their_ terms, which are usually impossible or defined in bad faith. From their point of view, nonfalsifiablity is _not_ a weakness in evaluating if a theory holds up, it is a _strength_. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/84 "2021-03-01T16:32:11Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > This conspiracy theory turned out to be true. Show me any evidence that this was a conspiracy theory before it was revealed. Secrets exist. That doesn’t make the revelation of a secret project a conspiracy theory come true. That’s backward reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/85 "2021-03-01T16:38:05Z")
Here is [a great article](https://aeon.co/essays/the-intellectual-character-of-conspiracy-theorists) that I find very explanatory of conspiracy-thinking mindsets. The basic theory is that there is a thing called _intellectual character_ which is a shorthand for one’s intellectual habits. An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Gullibility, carelessness and closed-mindedness are examples of what the US philosopher Linda Zagzebski, in her book _Virtues of the Mind_ (1996), has called ‘intellectual vices’. Others include negligence, idleness, rigidity, obtuseness, prejudice, lack of thoroughness, and insensitivity to detail. Intellectual character traits are habits or styles of thinking… Intellectual character traits that aid effective and responsible enquiry are _intellectual virtues_ , whereas _intellectual vices_ are intellectual character traits that impede effective and responsible inquiry. Humility, caution and carefulness are among the intellectual virtues Oliver plainly lacks, and that is why his attempts to get to the bottom of 9/11 are so flawed. So, to some, if you have certain intellectual vices, and lack counterbalancing virtues, then you’ll be more likely to consume a conspiracy theory. Getting back to the OP, one of the main vices described in that article is the tendency to experience a refutation of evidence as evidence of a coverup. If you possess that typical habit, of being so obsessed with the coverup that you can’t evaluate the evidence, the sky is the limit as far as what you can be induced to believe. It’s maddeningly difficult to dislodge beliefs under those conditions. I happen to believe this tendency is widespread, and easily exploited, and there is a risk of state actors weaponizing it (if it hasn’t happened already). ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/86 "2021-03-01T17:46:08Z")
@expano I did. Google “Conspiracy theories that turned out to be true” A wired article came up and more on MK Ultra. There are several articles The Church Committee ie A US government Committee even said so. There are 20,000 remaining documents that survived alluding to MK Ultra. What more proof do you need? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/87 "2021-03-01T17:53:58Z")
Is there any evidence that it was a conspiracy theory **before** the reveal about the project? ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/88 "2021-03-01T17:54:40Z")
@expano " Although Olson’s family told friends that he had suffered “a fatal nervous breakdown” which resulted in the fall,[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson#cite_note-Ignatieff-2001-1) the family had no real knowledge of the specific details surrounding the tragedy, until the [Rockefeller Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President%27s_Commission_on_CIA_activities_within_the_United_States) uncovered some of the CIA’s [MKULTRA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA) activities in 1975. That year, the government admitted that Olson had been dosed with LSD, without his knowledge, nine days before his death. After the family announced they planned to sue the Agency over Olson’s “wrongful death,” the government offered them an out-of-court settlement of $1,250,000, later reduced to $750,000, which they accepted.[[35]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson#cite_note-35) The family received apologies from President [Gerald Ford](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford) and then-CIA director [William Colby](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Colby).[[36]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson#cite_note-Brown-36) Watch the mini docudrama on Net Flix about Frank Olsen if reading the sourced material is boring and too lengthy. I believe I have presented more than enough evidence to answer your questions on the MK Ultra subject. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/89 "2021-03-01T17:59:50Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > " Although Olson’s family told friends that he had suffered “a fatal nervous breakdown” which resulted in the fall,[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson#cite_note-Ignatieff-2001-1) the family had no real knowledge of the specific details surrounding the tragedy, until the [Rockefeller Commission](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President%27s_Commission_on_CIA_activities_within_the_United_States) uncovered some of the CIA’s [MKULTRA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA) activities in 1975. Which means that there was no suspicion of some governmental conspiracy-just evidence that he had a nervous breakdown. Where are the stories about a mysterious government agency causing these problems before the actual official reveal? Where is the actual conspiracy theory itself? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/90 "2021-03-01T18:08:06Z")
You’re still not listening there @shh1313. The question is _not_ “Did MK-Ultra really exist?” We all agree it really did exist and really was bad. The question _is_ “Before MK-Ultra was revealed to the world, was there a widely circulating rumor or theory that the CIA was doing that sort of thing?” As far as anyone knows, there was no such circulating public theory. Bad things _were_ being done in secret, but there was _no public theory about a cover-up_. Bottom line: MK-Ultra proves that bad things can be done in secret. It provides zero proof that any publicly circulating theories about bad things being done in secret are likely to be true. And provides even less proof that any particular publicly circulating theory today about a particular bad thing being done in secret today is likely to be true today. If you cannot understand the distinctions we’re raising, that suggests you’ve fallen into the CT-thinking habit. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/91 "2021-03-01T18:15:40Z")
I googled: “Consprirosy theories that turned out to be true” MK Ultra was the first one that Google returned. NYT, Wired and several other publications mention MK Ultra. I posted the links. Wikipedia too. Go back and read the links. Do it: “Consprirosy theories that turned out to be true” post the returned links. Or use another search engine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/92 "2021-03-01T18:35:32Z")
So your evidence that there was an MK-ULTRA conspiracy theory _before_ the evidence was revealed is the fact that you can type things into the Google search engine? Not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/93 "2021-03-01T19:06:23Z")
The question is can you show evidence before MK Ultra was revealed that there was a popular conspiracy theory going around at the time. That is MK Ultra reached public attention in 1975. It had been going on from 1953 - 1973, more or less. Is there any contemporaneous record between 1953-1973 of a conspiracy theory going around with aspects of MK Ultra in it? Basically, just show us that people were talking about MK Ultra in substance if not name publicly before 1975. On the other hand, I’m not entirely sure why it matters. It’s an example of something – if it were a circulating conspiracy theory – that probably would be waved off as being outlandish. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/94 "2021-03-01T19:16:48Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > I believe I have presented more than enough evidence to answer your questions on the MK Ultra subject. Not at all. As several others have already commented, you went out of your way to avoid answering the direct question. Sadly, this is not merely typical of conspiracy theory mongers, it is a tell that they aren’t approaching the subject with scientific objectivity. The very first question one must ask of an answer to “are conspiracy theories true?” is “when did the theory part become public?” If that question can’t be answered or can only be answered with a year after its reveal, then no conspiracy theory exists. No known conspiracy theory has an answer that would indicate that the theory became public first and then was revealed to be true. None. That’s why conspiracy theorists are ridiculed by objective thinkers. You could make a name for yourself and be the first person to establish a predecessor date for MK ULTRA. What a coup that would be. Instead, you refuse to give any answer at all and pretend not to know what we’re asking. Sorry, that’s the wrong approach. All that does is guarantee that your statements will be questioned, refuted, and ridiculed. As they should be. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/95 "2021-03-01T20:55:26Z")
My question is why did the MK Ultra show up as results in search engines that I " **specifically asked" for “conspiracy theories” that were “proved” “true.”** Answer me that. I based my MK Ultra answer on being true because of the multiple queries on MK Ultra in the multiple search engines answering repeatedly returning the **SAME THING over and over again**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/96 "2021-03-01T21:08:54Z")
So the fuck what-I just Googled “Jonny Quest conspiracy theory” and got 665,000 hits. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/97 "2021-03-01T21:11:50Z")
“Bananas Foster conspiracy theory” - _1,910,000 hits!_ ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/98 "2021-03-01T21:23:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Secrets exist. That doesn’t make the revelation of a secret project a conspiracy theory come true. And leads to conspiracy theorists holding up a previously secret project as evidence that the secret project which pulled off their pet conspiracy also existed. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/99 "2021-03-01T22:03:00Z")
Your search is misdirected: What you are detecting are _post-hoc, retroactive_ claims that it was a conspiracy-theory-proven-true, as opposed to _a covert operation exposed._ What you should be looking for is evidence that _a coherent conspiracy theory_ explaining these sad events was circulating _ **before** _ the real MKUltra project was revealed. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360/100 "2021-03-01T22:56:29Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > My question is why did the MK Ultra show up as results in search engines that I " **specifically asked" for “conspiracy theories” that were “proved” “true.”** Answer me that. I based my MK Ultra answer on being true because of the multiple queries on MK Ultra in the multiple search engines answering repeatedly returning the **SAME THING over and over again**. Conspiracy theorists can’t seem to help themselves. They yell loudly that they don’t understand the scientific method while they’re defending their pseudoscientific nonsense and procedures as the truth. They make it so easy for the rest of us. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conspiracy-theories-why-the-outlandish-ones-that-dont-even-sound-remotely-real/916360.md?page=6)