# "Constitutional Carry" Proposed in My Home State **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161 "2015-05-03T17:40:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/21 "2015-05-04T19:35:07Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The OP isn’t discussing the difference between “open carry” (meaning openly carrying your weapon, i.e. unconcealed) and “concealed carry”. It is a discussion between concealed carry with a permit after taking a course (which is the law in most states) and concealed carry without a permit (which is law in 5 states). 6 states. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/22 "2015-05-04T19:49:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > 6 states. Alaska Arizona Kansas Vermont Wyoming ??? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/23 "2015-05-04T20:00:15Z")
Arkansas ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/24 "2015-05-04T20:16:37Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Arkansas Thanks ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/25 "2015-05-04T20:28:48Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > So if you, as a police officer, detain someone, search him, and find a firearm, do you do anything to determine if the person is not prohibited from possessing that firearm? What do you do if the person refuses to identify himself, itself not illegal in Maine? How can you run a “queries and warrants” search on someone if you don’t have that information available to you? You already have this situation with open carry. An officer can ask an OCer about their activity, but if that subject tells him to pound sand, what are they going to do about it? Detain someone not breaking the law? If you have cops detaining people not breaking the law please tell me where, I’ll fly up tonight. I could use some extra money. This ties in to the constitutional carry topic. Nobody has yet to give a plausible explanation why a license or permit should be required to carry concealed in public, when open carry does not. What changes when one hides their weapon that a permission slip from the government is required? ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/26 "2015-05-04T21:47:58Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > You already have this situation with open carry. An officer can ask an OCer about their activity, but if that subject tells him to pound sand, what are they going to do about it? Detain someone not breaking the law? If you have cops detaining people not breaking the law please tell me where, I’ll fly up tonight. I could use some extra money. > > This ties in to the constitutional carry topic. Nobody has yet to give a plausible explanation why a license or permit should be required to carry concealed in public, when open carry does not. What changes when one hides their weapon that a permission slip from the government is required? Evidently at some point in history someone thought there was an important enough distinction between the two. Prohibitions on concealing weapons have been around since the early to mid 1800’s in the USA, [according to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#History). I have no idea what the rationale was for it back then. Perhaps there is a historian in our midst that might shed some light on the justifications. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/27 "2015-05-04T21:58:07Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Evidently at some point in history someone thought there was an important enough distinction between the two. Prohibitions on concealing weapons have been around since the early to mid 1800’s in the USA, [according to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#History). I have no idea what the rationale was for it back then. Perhaps there is a historian in our midst that might shed some light on the justifications. This may not be the entire answer, but from what I’ve read in the past men who hid their weapons were considered cowards. Their intent of use of the weapon was concealed and it was cowardly not to let people know you were armed. Someone might not have words with you if they knew you had the ability to blast them if they insulted you. This is just piecing together some things I’ve read and it could be complete B.S… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/28 "2015-05-04T23:30:46Z")
Historically, permits were a way of discriminating against minorities. Only the “right kind of people” got permits. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/29 "2015-05-04T23:51:34Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > I’m going to try and leave my personal opinions on the merits out of this and argue that the effects are probably pretty limited. Maine is a shall-issue state already, meaning they’ll give a CCL to anyone who fills out the paperwork and meets the requirements. This change will mean that one form and a 1-2 month delay are removed. It won’t make it all that easier to CC, especially since the people who are most interested in doing so already have permits. I think this is a fallacy, honestly. I’d worry about liberalization encouraging straw purchasers and smugglers to use Maine as a source of less-regulated firearms. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/30 "2015-05-05T00:08:50Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I’d worry about liberalization encouraging straw purchasers and smugglers to use Maine as a source of less-regulated firearms. Constitutional carry has absolutely nothing to do with the sales of firearms. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/31 "2015-05-05T00:12:38Z")
What specifically is fallacious about it? Moreover, by what mechanism could a reduction in concealed carry regulations make the purchase of firearms easier? Do you know what constitutional concealed carry is? Let’s put some facts into this debate. Since you mention smugglers, I’m going to assume that you’re referring to guns illegally brought into Mexico. The distance from the nearest point in Maine to Mexico is about 1,900 miles as the crow flies and longer by car. That’s farther than any other point in the entire continental United States. Moreover, [we can look at an actual source on how many guns Maine exports to Mexico per year. (PDF)](http://www.tracetheguns.org/Issue_Brief_Mexico_2010.pdf) Get ready, because it’s a pretty big number: .3 guns per 100,000 residents, or a whopping _ **4** _ guns per year. Let’s summarize this issue. For one, what Maine is proposing doing could not possibly have any effect on straw purchases. Second, it is less attractive to smuggle guns from Maine to Mexico than any other point in the continental United States. Third, guns smuggled from Maine are a tiny and insignificant amount. In short, your worries are unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/32 "2015-05-05T00:39:40Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > . . . by what mechanism could a reduction in concealed carry regulations make the purchase of firearms easier? I admit it’s an indirect effect, but here it is: By making being an owner of a tool designed to kill people more socially acceptable. > [@pkbites](#): > > Seeing that in most of the U.S. open carry without a permit and easily obtained CCW permits is the norm, why on Earth would Maine dropping their permit requirement draw a single person to live there? That idea just seems silly to me. Americans move a lot, and a lot of their moves are ideology-influenced, as explained in this wonderful book: [http://www.thebigsort.com/home.php](http://www.thebigsort.com/home.php) We both know that many American gun enthusiasts talk about moving to a more gun-friendly state. I’ve read it on web forums, and heard it in real life. For some it’s just talk, but I can’t believe all are blowhards. Constitutional carry states are frequently listed and hailed by the gun friendly, as can be seen on this thread. So it makes perfect sense for someone like myself – someone who see guns as a public health menace – to hope my state stays off the constitutional carry list. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/33 "2015-05-05T01:08:12Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I admit it’s an indirect effect, but here it is: By making being an owner of a tool designed to kill people more socially acceptable. > > Americans move a lot, and a lot of their moves are ideology-influenced, as explained in this wonderful book: > > [Home](http://www.thebigsort.com/home.php) > > We both know that many American gun enthusiasts talk about moving to a more gun-friendly state. I’ve read it on web forums, and heard it in real life. For some it’s just talk, but I can’t believe all are blowhards. > > Constitutional carry states are frequently listed and hailed by the gun friendly, as can be seen on this thread. So it makes perfect sense for someone like myself – someone who see guns as a public health menace – to hope my state stays off the constitutional carry list. I don’t know if I would go as far as to call guns a public health menace, but I don’t have much experience with them myself. I’ve never been as much of an outdoorsman as many of my neighbors. I go fishing once in a blue moon, but that’s about it. That said, most of the “gun nuts” that I have met are not all that into hand-guns. They buy high-powered rifles to shoot bear and moose, and then eat what they shoot. I once took the NRA pistol course, just to see if it was something I could get into, but it just didn’t enthuse me as much as it does others. I still have the goggles and muffs from the class, but never did bother buying a pistol, or any other kind of gun. Still, I have never once turned down venison or moose meat when it has been offered by friends and relatives. That stuff is just plain delicious!😃 They can keep that greasy bear meat though. Considering that most of Maine’s gun “culture” has to do with hunting, I’m actually kind of surprised that this kind of bill would pop up here. I realize that some people do actually hunt with handguns, but I would wager more people hunt with bows and arrows, or black powder rifles, than do with handguns. One of the reasons I gave up on them after taking the course was because it was so darn difficult to actually hit the target! ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/34 "2015-05-05T02:14:49Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Vermont does have a below-average firearms death rate. But Maine is above average: > > [Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | KFF](http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/) That’s not how statistics work, and without a standard deviation or something you can’t conclude that. For either state. And that says nothing about inhomogeneities within states; California is even lower, do you think that many places in California are incredibly safe? [This says that they are the #1 and #2 safest states](http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/01/02/the-safest-states-in-america/4/). I make no claims to the validity of that site or its methodology; it was just the first link on Google that wasn’t a goddamn slideshow. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I admit it’s an indirect effect, but here it is: By making being an owner of a tool designed to kill people more socially acceptable. > > Americans move a lot, and a lot of their moves are ideology-influenced, as explained in this wonderful book: You seem to overestimate the ease at which people move or assume that people make decisions on single issues. Or that your state is somehow more attractive than the other 5-6 states, which I will absolutely assume have not gotten a huge influx of immigrants since the laws passed. Those states also tend to be lower crime and cheaper to live (= more rural, general rule). I would think those would weigh higher on peoples’ decisions. Thankfully laws aren’t always passed based on feelings or your gut. Constitutional carry thus far doesn’t seem to increase or decrease crime, just like how Colorado didn’t become a hepped up on goofballs hellhole after marijuana legalization. Not saying carry will work identically everywhere, but I would put good money on nothing happening in Maine. > [@](#): > > [Home](http://www.thebigsort.com/home.php) I don’t know this book but it looks like they are talking about the scale of _decades_, no? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/35 "2015-05-05T02:44:07Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > We both know that many American gun enthusiasts talk about moving to a more gun-friendly state. I’ve read it on web forums, and heard it in real life. For some it’s just talk, but I can’t believe all are blowhards. I read those too. And a lot of those are from draconian states like New Jersey and such. In reality all but a handful of states are “gun friendly”, it’s just a matter of degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/36 "2015-07-09T05:08:41Z")
And [Maine becomes the 7th state in the union to recognize constitutional carry.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/08/us-usa-maine-guns-idUSKCN0PI2QX20150708) Originally the bill only applied to those over 21, but the governor said he would veto any bill that didn’t apply to the military as well. It was revised to apply to military 18 years and older and he has signed. This passed with bi-partisan support from a democratically controlled house legislature. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/37 "2015-07-09T12:26:01Z")
I live in Wyoming. Consitutional carry went into effect here in November 2012. The latest crime data I can find are from 2013. > **[Wyoming State Crime and Crime Rate - USA.com™](http://www.usa.com/wyoming-state-crime-and-crime-rate.htm)** > > Wyoming has a Crime Index of 1,135.52, which ranked #8 in all states. Also contains Wyoming multi-years crime count, police force, and hate crime info. For the nine years listed, the year after constitutional carry enactment has the lowest crime index, although not but much. Wyoming continues to have among the highest gun ownership rates and lowest crime rates in the U.S. > **[Wyoming Crime Rates Among The Lowest In The Country](https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/01/08/wyoming-crime-rates-among-the-lowest-in-the-country/)** > > Wyoming has 60% gun ownership, and their crime rate is among the lowest in the US. Gun Ownership, by State – Guns, by State – Gun Owners Percentage by State The murder rate in Wyoming f… In my personal experience, not much changed. Most serious shooters already had permits, and continue to renew them, for two reasons. 1. Reciprocity with other states (need a state-issued permit to carry in other states.) 2. Saves time when buying new guns from dealers. (If you have a permit, you still have to fill out the federal paperwork, but the dealer doesn’t have to call it in for approval. Dealers love it when you have a permit, calling the feds for purchase approval and waiting is a hassle.) Almost everyone I know in Wyoming is a “gun-person” to some extent, but a lot of that is more for hunting than for self defense. A lot of these people aren’t even aware that they no longer need a permit to carry concealed. They’re happy when I tell them. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/38 "2015-07-09T12:39:35Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > \ > 2) Saves time when buying new guns from dealers. (If you have a permit, you still have to fill out the federal paperwork, but the dealer doesn’t have to call it in for approval. Dealers love it when you have a permit, calling the feds for purchase approval and waiting is a hassle.) Are you sure about this part? I have bought a couple of guns in Ohio since I got my CCW permit, and the dealer called it in to NICS both times, and both times the approval took less than a minute. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/39 "2015-07-09T17:22:09Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Are you sure about this part? I have bought a couple of guns in Ohio since I got my CCW permit, and the dealer called it in to NICS both times, and both times the approval took less than a minute. Yes. > **[Universal Background Checks – GunPolicy.org](https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/7748)** > > Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development > **[Wyoming Concealed Carry Permit Information](https://www.usacarry.com/wyoming-concealed-carry/)** > > Wyoming Concealed Carry Permit Information, Wyoming Concealed Weapons Permit, Wyoming Concealed Carry Reciprocity > **[Permanent Brady Permit Chart | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and...](https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart)** > > Prepared by: ATF Office of Enforcement Programs and Services Last updated: August 10, 2023 Note: Notwithstanding the dates set forth below, permits qualify as alternatives to the background check requirements of the Brady law for no more than 5 years... Every time I’ve purchased a gun from an FFL in Wyoming and produced my CCW permit, the response has been positive, ranging from “Good, that makes things easier” to “Bless you, my son.” Back in my pre-CCW days, I never recall the NICs check taking less than a minute. More like 15-30 minutes. I recall wandering around the guns shop, smoking cigarettes, etc., to kill time. My buddy used to get “delayed” as often as not. The general understanding then was that some criminal had the same name as him. By law, I think they have up to three days for an outright denial - if that doesn’t come, you get to buy the gun. What sucked was the gun shop with the best selection/lowest prices in our area was more than an hour’s drive away. So we’d go to the shop, my buddy would try to buy a gun, and get denied. So he’d have to come back the following weekend to actually take possession of the gun. Maybe it’s better now. Not sure - I got my first CCW in 2001. Michigan also had the NICs exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161/40 "2015-07-09T17:28:37Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Yes. > > [Universal Background Checks – GunPolicy.org](http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/7748) > > [Wyoming Concealed Carry Permit Information](http://www.usacarry.com/wyoming_concealed_carry_permit_information.html) > > [https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart](https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart) > > Every time I’ve purchased a gun from an FFL in Wyoming and produced my CCW permit, the response has been positive, ranging from “Good, that makes things easier” to “Bless you, my son.” > > Back in my pre-CCW days, I never recall the NICs check taking less than a minute. More like 15-30 minutes. I recall wandering around the guns shop, smoking cigarettes, etc., to kill time. > > My buddy used to get “delayed” as often as not. The general understanding then was that some criminal had the same name as him. By law, I think they have up to three days for an outright denial - if that doesn’t come, you get to buy the gun. What sucked was the gun shop with the best selection/lowest prices in our area was more than an hour’s drive away. So we’d go to the shop, my buddy would try to buy a gun, and get denied. So he’d have to come back the following weekend to actually take possession of the gun. > > Maybe it’s better now. Not sure - I got my first CCW in 2001. Michigan also had the NICs exemption. Thanks. Ohio is not on the list. I guess I have been lucky as far as NICS checks go. Mine have been quick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-carry-proposed-in-my-home-state/719161.md?page=3)