# Constitutional rights violations and crimes committed when spotted by the gang unit **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276 "2019-01-06T00:19:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![memeingtrillions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@memeingtrillions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/memeingtrillions)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/21 "2019-01-07T15:01:45Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I’m skeptical about an intoxicated person being sedated. > > Most medical professionals I’ve dealt with won’t sedate someone intoxicated on an unknown substance. And they usually don’t in the case of high BAC. Even in cases of excited delirium they are very cautious about sedatives. According to various documentation online this is due to joint trainings resulting in a working relationship with the goal of ensuring safety. Officers don’t say you are going to detox because that agitates people which leads to unsafe situations. If you end up inside an ambulance instead of going to detox you are sedated because you will probably be agitated and could hurt yourself or the paramedic. Thus, we have the situation where for jaywalking you end up in what might otherwise look like a kidnapping / alien abduction situation: someone walks up behind you, puts you in handcuffs, forces you into a van, you fight, so they sedate you and you wake up in a dark room chained to a bed. All 100% legal, proceduralized and commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/22 "2019-01-07T15:13:00Z")
No one sedates people preemptively. That’s what restraints are for. Sedating some random person arrested when you don’t know if they are on anything is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Probably due to the death of the person. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/23 "2019-01-07T15:19:04Z")
> [@memeingtrillions](#): > > According to various documentation online this is due to joint trainings resulting in a working relationship with the goal of ensuring safety. Officers don’t say you are going to detox because that agitates people which leads to unsafe situations. If you end up inside an ambulance instead of going to detox you are sedated because you will probably be agitated and could hurt yourself or the paramedic. > > Thus, we have the situation where for jaywalking you end up in what might otherwise look like a kidnapping / alien abduction situation: someone walks up behind you, puts you in handcuffs, forces you into a van, you fight, so they sedate you and you wake up in a dark room chained to a bed. > > All 100% legal, proceduralized and commonplace. I’m gonna need a cite that this is commonplace and a matter of procedure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![memeingtrillions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@memeingtrillions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/memeingtrillions)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/24 "2019-01-07T15:25:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m gonna need a cite that this is commonplace and a matter of procedure. > > Regards, > Shodan I am not sure where to get the cite but am working on it. That granularity of statistic doesn’t seem to be published AFAICT. If you decline to go to detox, you get an ambulance instead. Since you are agitated and distressed (declined to go to detox) they sedate you for everyone’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/25 "2019-01-07T15:56:54Z")
I work in IT, but the building in which I used to work was upstairs from the adolescent involuntary detox center. Occasionally I saw some drugged-out, very agitated teenagers being brought in. AFAICT none of them had been sedated. And a colleague used to work in that center (he used to be a chem-dep counselor before he became a programmer). As **Just Asking Questions** mentions, that’s what the four-point restraint room is for. Alcohol and other CNS depressants interact and reinforce many common sedative drugs. Routinely administering such drugs, without a doctor seeing the patient first, is going to result in a lot of overdoses. I’ll certainly look at any cites you can find, but I find it hard to believe that anybody is going to just start slamming barbiturates into every drunk they find, no matter what their working relationship is with the police. **Muffin** ’s Denver C.A.R.E.S. case notwithstanding, which AFAICT is about them being arrested, not sedated. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![memeingtrillions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@memeingtrillions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/memeingtrillions)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/26 "2019-01-07T17:03:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I work in IT, but the building in which I used to work was upstairs from the adolescent involuntary detox center. Occasionally I saw some drugged-out, very agitated teenagers being brought in. AFAICT none of them had been sedated. And a colleague used to work in that center (he used to be a chem-dep counselor before he became a programmer). As **Just Asking Questions** mentions, that’s what the four-point restraint room is for. > > Alcohol and other CNS depressants interact and reinforce many common sedative drugs. Routinely administering such drugs, without a doctor seeing the patient first, is going to result in a lot of overdoses. > > I’ll certainly look at any cites you can find, but I find it hard to believe that anybody is going to just start slamming barbiturates into every drunk they find, no matter what their working relationship is with the police. **Muffin** ’s Denver C.A.R.E.S. case notwithstanding, which AFAICT is about them being arrested, not sedated. > > Regards, > Shodan Midazolam ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/27 "2019-01-07T17:51:02Z")
> [@memeingtrillions](#): > > Midazolam Which is a [benzodiazepine](https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16693/versed-oral/details/list-interaction-details/dmid-1374/dmtitle-benzodiazepines-ethyl-alcohol/intrtype-drug). > [@](#): > > Ethyl Alcohol/Benzodiazepines Interactions > > Medical warning: > > Serious. These medicines may interact and cause very harmful effects. Contact your healthcare professional (e.g. doctor or pharmacist) for more information. Again, what I would like to see is a cite that drunks are routinely dosed with sedatives on their way to detox. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/28 "2019-01-08T02:08:59Z")
IANAL but being detained against one’s will is the act of arrest. It does not require police to level any charges but they do have to justify the act. Arrest without charges comes with a time limit. resisting detainment within the time period is resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/29 "2019-01-08T02:35:08Z")
> [@memeingtrillions](#): > > According to various documentation online this is due to joint trainings resulting in a working relationship with the goal of ensuring safety. Officers don’t say you are going to detox because that agitates people which leads to unsafe situations. If you end up inside an ambulance instead of going to detox you are sedated because you will probably be agitated and could hurt yourself or the paramedic. > > Thus, we have the situation where for jaywalking you end up in what might otherwise look like a kidnapping / alien abduction situation: someone walks up behind you, puts you in handcuffs, forces you into a van, you fight, so they sedate you and you wake up in a dark room chained to a bed. > > All 100% legal, proceduralized and commonplace. No it isn’t! First of all, unless they are an actual paramedic ambulance staff don’t administer narcotic intravenous drugs. Second, sedatives are not administered to an intoxicated person when the substance causing intoxication is unknown or alcohol. Even when the cause of impairment is known it’s rare that sedatives are given. Third, when administration of such drugs is given, it’s almost always in a hospital/clinic setting, not on the street. Giving such an injection in an ambulance or detox transport would be extraordinarily rare, and the only one time I’ve ever actually seen it was in the case of an excited delirium patient. And I don’t know what they gave him as his intoxicant was Psilocybin. Finally, I’ve been on the job since '82 in a large metropolitan city. I’ve dealt with taking people to detox a zillion times. Nothing in your story is even close to reality. Might I suggest you were so fucked up you don’t know what really happened to you? Black outs, delusions, and false memories are common with people who are dangerously and/or chronically inebriated. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/30 "2019-01-08T02:57:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > but being detained against one’s will is the act of arrest. Under Terry it’s a detainment not an arrest. Reasonable suspicion must be present which is a lesser standard than probable cause which is needed for an arrest. When I pull over a car on traffic stop the entire car is seized, including all passengers inside. They are not under arrest but they are not free to go either. ETA: In my state the law is [Resisting or obstructing officer.](https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/946/IV/41) not resisting arrest. A person doesn’t have to be under arrest or even detained to be guilty of it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/31 "2019-01-08T03:17:14Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Under Terry it’s a detainment not an arrest. Reasonable suspicion must be present which is a lesser standard than probable cause which is needed for an arrest. yes but what was described by the op appears to be detainment beyond a terry stop. which appears to be an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/32 "2019-01-08T03:25:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes but what was described by the op appears to be detainment beyond a terry stop. which appears to be an arrest. The OP could have been a mental health hold which is not an arrest. But someone did tell them they were under arrest. So that’s that. BTW, I’m calling BS on the :dubious:P. Some or all of it didn’t happen or at very least didn’t happen the way described. I can’t imagine anywhere in the U.S. things going down like that. The claim of being sedated is the biggest red flag. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/33 "2019-01-08T04:26:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > …And I don’t know what they gave him as his intoxicant was Psilocybin… Possibly [benzos](https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/817848-treatment), but it seems unlikely he’d get those from paramedics so fuck if I know. . ---
**Author:** ![LTU2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LTU2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LTU2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/34 "2019-01-08T22:30:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > As I understand it, police don’t have to tell the person what he’s being arrested for at the time of arrest. I think that idea came from movies and TV. It’s the DA who determines what the charges will be (if any), and it can take some time. In felony cases, the accused is formally charged with the crime at the arraignment. In Ohio a person arrested without a warrant must be informed of the charge against him, but if he is in the commission of a crime, the officer does not have to tell the arrestee the reason. ---
**Author:** ![LTU2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LTU2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LTU2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/35 "2019-01-08T22:57:06Z")
[quote=“memeingtrillions, post:1, topic:827276”] Hypothetical scenario: You are jaywalking in Denver and the police pull up behind you. You are quickly cuffed without warning but are not under arrest. The police make idle conversation and jokes with you for about 20 minutes before a detox van quietly parks a few feet behind you, and you are walked into it without any warning… [li] Liberty / freedom of movement: Public intoxication is not a crime in CO and you were not charged with jaywalking or anything[/li][/QUOTE] Maybe PI is against the law in that city and is an arrestable offense? Maybe jaywalking is an arrestable offense in that city? Did the detainee ask what his custodial status was after being cuffed? ---
**Author:** ![LTU2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LTU2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LTU2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/36 "2019-01-08T23:08:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > When I pull over a car on traffic stop the entire car is seized, including all passengers inside. They are not under arrest but they are not free to go either. If you are speaking of Brendlin, all passengers are seized and can thus challenge the constitutionality of the stop, yes. Does this mean no passenger is free to leave if no RS keeps them there? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/37 "2019-01-09T03:55:24Z")
> [@LTU2](#): > > If you are speaking of Brendlin, all passengers are seized and can thus challenge the constitutionality of the stop, yes. Does this mean no passenger is free to leave if no RS keeps them there? Yes. Brendlin V California and Maryland V Wilson. \*\*\*With its decision in this case, the Court expressly so held. “We think that in these circumstances any reasonable passenger would have understood the police officers to be exercising control to the point that no one in the car was free to depart without police permission.” \*\*\* (Brendlin). My point, going back to earlier posts, is that while they are being detained they are not “under arrest” like some here have insinuated. In reality do we let passengers leave on a traffic stop? Sure. 95% of traffic stops turn out to be just that, only a traffic infraction. Passenger needs to keep going to get to school or work and nothing seems hinkey, be on your way while I cite your buddy. ---
**Author:** ![LTU2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LTU2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LTU2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/38 "2019-01-09T23:02:55Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > My point, going back to earlier posts, is that while they are being detained they are not “under arrest” like some here have insinuated. I can’t remember the case in my head but when a warrant is served the police have a right to detain anyone on the premises, but they are not under arrest. Am I right on that? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/39 "2019-01-10T00:29:08Z")
I believe once you are handcuffed, you are under arrest. This may not be the BEST site but…[What Does It Mean to Be in Police Custody? | LegalMatch](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/police-custody-lawyers.html) > [@](#): > > Does Police Custody Mean I Am Arrested? > Police can have you in their custody without actually arresting you. Police custody is generally defined as anytime the police deprive you of your freedom of action or where you know you cannot get up and leave the presence of the police by your free will. An arrest actually occurs when: > > You are detained by physical restraint > You are booked at the police station > You are placed in handcuffs, or > You are placed in the back of a locked police car > If the police have you in their custody or they have arrested you, they must inform you of your Miranda rights and give you the opportunity to exercise those rights. ---
**Author:** ![LTU2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@LTU2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LTU2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276/40 "2019-01-10T01:09:58Z")
Typo, this may help, I had to rattle my brain a little to remember the case. Was the detention/seizure of Richardson a Terry Stop or an Arrest? > **[United States of America, Plaintiff-appellee, v. Dock Richardson,...](https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/949/851/82608/)** > > United States of America, Plaintiff-appellee, v. Dock Richardson, Defendant-appellant, 949 F.2d 851 (6th Cir. 1991) case opinion from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/constitutional-rights-violations-and-crimes-committed-when-spotted-by-the-gang-unit/827276.md?page=3)