Contact with the Great Beyond--Psychics like Praagh

No need. I’ve called him a liar several times. He has never sought to deny the lies that I have highlighted. It is not an insult, it is just a fact. On several occasions Lekatt has claimed to have provided cites that he hasn’t, stated that he never claimed certain things that he has, etc etc.

No doubt your retraction of your accusations against Doc Cathode is imminent. Any moment now, Lekatt, you are going to start applying the same standards to yourself as to others. I’m waiting. I’ve brought my tea and sandwiches. No need to rush.

**

Been done. No use. Any posters who post something that suggests that your reading matches them will be judged by Lekatt to be a skeptic, and thus (according to Lekatt) untrustworthy, which of course amounts to a polite way of saying that such posters are lying, or frauds or whatever.

We are, in this thread, in Lekatt-Land.

In Lekatt-Land:

[list]1. One can (quite vehemently) claim both to be, and not to be a self proclaimed psychic.

  1. Calling others frauds or liars is unacceptable.

  2. Describing first hand experience that supports cold reading makes one a sceptic. See also point 4.

  3. Sceptics are frauds and liars.

  4. Describing first hand experience that supports psychic ability is inviolate.

  5. One can cite something simply by saying that one cited it before.

  6. The onus of proof is on those who suggest that something does not happen, unless you debunking a sceptic, in which case no proof is necessary, due to point 4. above.

Lekatt, if the Duke studies/Department to which you refer is the parapsychology lab once headed by J.B. Rhine, this is an infamous story of fraud and poor science, so poor that it has been dubbed pathological science.

Another brief article about the lab.

The Rhine lab produced not a single psy test that can be reliably reproduced by anyone else. And this is the best that you can offer as proof of psychic phenomena???

Musicat, Lekatt won’t bother to read either of those stories, since they don’t fit his beliefs, and come from skeptical sources, which, as we’ve come to learn, are fraudulent. Only a source which says the Rhine studies are valid and were perfecty done would be acceptable to Lekatt.

And not even a “cold reading” definition from a professional psychic will do for him! When denial gets even that far you know he is in the wrong forum.

I love this quote, from the pathological science article Musicat points to.

“Langmuir found that Rhine was not counting all his data, however. He was leaving out the scores of those he believed were guessing their Zener cards wrong on purpose. “Rhine believed that persons who disliked him guessed wrong to spite him. Therefore, he felt it would be misleading to include their scores.””

Zener cards have those familar symbols: star, wavey lines, plus sign, circle, square.

In this article from the The Chronicle Online (The Indepedent Daily at Duke University) ESPecially Unique Research off Campus note the comment about “fake psychics.”

Apparently people call The Rhine Center for referrals to psychics, which they do not do.

"{Maggie} Blackman {public relations and media spokesman for the center} says she usually counsels people to “wait at least a year” before attempting to contact someone who has recently died and to go about picking a psychic as one would a psychologist. She said people who are dealing with a recent loss are more likely to fall victim to phony “psychic” readings because, “people who are grieving are willing to stretch.”

This sort of mentality scares me.

Hmm… sounds like what we have been trying to get lekatt to tell us in this thread – how can you tell a phony from a real one?

[slight hijack]
With reference to Papermache Prince’s quote of Langmuir/Rhine, when I was in college, one of the requirements to pass Psych 101 was to participate in a certain number of studies as a volunteer. The study I was assigned to was a textbook ESP test of “guess the cards.” But all I wrote on the test sheet was stars. I was branded as a uncooperative subject. “But Professor, all I see is stars! Lots of stars! You don’t want me to lie on the test, do you?”

I often wondered if my scores were retained. However, the Psych Dept. never announced the discovery of ESP, so maybe they had some integrity after all.

Has anyone taken college Psych more recently, say in the last 10 years? If so, are they still doing these kinds of tests?
[/slight hijack]

Those are not controlled studies, and as noted above, the Duke University study falls appart under peer review. Therefor, they fall short of your “requirement” for proof.

Which we then prooved to be true by several of us checking the readings on ourselves and finding that we had same or better results than the psychic had on all of her callers. You then ignore this.

Sounds good to me, though Leroy ignored similar attempts earlier. Maybe we could get Leroy to do a reading on me too, like I asked about however many pages back, since he claims to have performed psychic acts before. We can see who’s more accurate… :slight_smile:

According to Ray Hyman, the term “cold reading” goes back at least to William Lindsay Gresham’s 1946 novel “Nightmare Alley.” But Gresham was a dilettante of sideshows and he maintained that he didn’t make up the term, that it was common among mentalists.

http://www.lib.umd.edu/RARE/Exhibits/HardBoiled/Gresham.html

Whether the term is older than that, or whether it was invented by a believer or a skeptic, it nevertheless refers to a technique that is certainly ancient and worldwide. The technique involves making a combination of general statements that could apply with high probability to a large number of people or even to almost everyone, together with a series of incrementally narrower statements that are generated by information that comes from the specific person being read. That information can be gleaned from physical appearance, body language, scars, the choice of wrist that one wears one’s watch on, whether the person makes eye contact, what tone of voice they use to introduce themselves, or anything even more specific that stands out, such as an unusual choice of clothing, or many other things. The more of this material the reader finds through scanning the person initially, the more specific he or she can become right from the beginning, before any verbal interaction begins. The interaction, from the psychic reader’s point of view, has two goals–one is to allow the person being read to help the reader succeed (as the person generally wishes to do) and the other is to take the items he or she has observed, and the inferences he or she has been able to make about the person based upon those items of information, and to turn them into the elements of a story about the person. Most people who visit psychic readers–either privately or as part of a television audience–or who go to seances are quite prepared to do most of the work for the psychic medium, in the sense that they will try their best to connect the bits of information that come from the medium into a whole pattern in their own lives.

I don’t have the transcript or tape of the TV show in which one of the correspondents to this thread asserts that Randi said that the same reading could be given to anyone, but I would be very surprised if that is what he really said. Such a reading would be very dull, and if that is what he said, that was surely his way to comment on the dullness of the psychic’s imagination. The truth is that readings have both general statements in them that almost anyone will be able to say applies to themselves, as well as specific statements generated by interacting with the individuals who receive the readings. Randi certainly knows this. Nevertheless, a NOVA special once showed him repeating Benjamin Forer’s 1949 experiment, described in Forer’s article, “The Fallacy of Personal Validation: A Classroom Demonstration of Gullibility.” Randi, like Forer, gave each student in a psychology class a sealed envelope with that student’s name on it. He told them that inside each envelope was a personality sketch of the student that had been drawn up for each one of them by a professional psychic, based on their names and their date of birth. The students then opened the envelopes and read their personality sketches. They were then asked to rate how well the description fit them, from 0-5, with 5 being a near-perfect match. Of the twenty or so students in the class, no one rated their description as either 0, 1, or 2. Only one person rated their description as a 3. About half of everyone else rated their descriptions as a 4 and half as a 5. Then Randi had everyone pass their own descriptions to their immediate neighbors and asked them if they could rate whether their neighbors’ descriptions also applied to them.

When they exchanged descriptions, they discovered that they were all the same. In fact, studies have been done that show that the more the subjects are told that statements in such descriptions have been generated just for them, the higher the subjects will rate the statements’ accuracy. Telling them that the psychic was given only their names, for example, produces a lower judgment of accuracy than telling the subjects that the psychic was given their names and birth month, which in turn rates lower scores than those from subjects who are told that the psychic was given their names and birth month and birthdays.

In fact, all the descriptions are always the same, consisting of a collection of statements that Forer gleaned from a newsstand astrology book. They include such statements as: “You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.” Etc. etc. This would seem to be more likely Randi’s point: If a psychic, in some particular case, can’t do better than a string of general statements, Randi would feel no need to offer much by way of an explanation of how she or he came up with such statements.

The difference between such a set of generalities and the more usual form of a psychic reading is not only that a striking reading mixes more specific and imaginative statements together with the general ones, but also that in a psychic reading, the statements, moving from most general to more specific, based on the subject’s responses, are shaped into a life story about the subject.

This appears to be the way it has always been done, whether it was called “cold reading” or not. For more on this, sample the material linked here:

http://www.spirithistory.com

Especially the essays on “trying the spirits” and “discovering wealth.”

Wow,littlegidding, that’s one heck of a first post, especially on such a long thread.
Since there’s a debate on the definition of cold reading,I found an unlikely place that had a good (possibly agreeable) definition of cold reading.
www.bibleandscience.com Talks about cold reading to some extent. The most interesting point, is taken from a book: Dan Korem’s Powers: Testing the Psychic & Supernatural . They list the 6 points in a bit more detail, but for simplicity and brevity’s sake:
1)The barnum effect
2)Identify the readee’s personality type
3)Observe for micro-expressions
4)Eavesdropping
5)Loading the language
6)Educated guessing

I can’t think of anything offhand that is missing (well,besides lack of integrity) from the list.

Pardon me for the length of these long initial posts, but I need to catch up on commenting.

On the issue of “lack of integrity,” as stpauler has just put it–there is certainly a range of methods of gaining information that shade off “cold reading” into what has been called “hot reading,” which is simply doing more intensive research, before the session begins, into the person’s life story. This might include having assistants mix with the audience congregating in the lobby before the show starts and reporting back with bits of conversation they’d overheard (or even in one notorious case, reporting back to the onstage psychic via a wireless earpiece). Other ways of setting up the audience have certainly been used for a long time–including the mining of local libraries for information on certain people who might be likely to attend an event, writing down license plate numbers in the theater parking lot, or even just hanging around the local barbershop or bar and picking up some good information on folks that way.

I also want to point out that there are degrees of difficulty in all this. Finding something specific to “hit” is more difficult when the psychic faces a single person than when they face an entire audience and is also more difficult when the subject is on the other end of a phone line instead of sitting visibly in front of the medium. But no matter what the venue or audience, the subject still does most of the work in making the medium succeed. Take that as you will–for a believer it means that skepticism on the part of the subject makes a “good” reading very difficult, for a skeptic it means that the information that is “read” is not gained through “occult” means (as it is made to seem), but is only being mirrored back to the subject.

I also wanted to point out that the distinction between those psychic readers who believe what they do is real and those who don’t (and are therefore frauds in any sense of the word) is probably only valid to a point. There is certainly evidence of people who recognize the “little tricks” they must “sometimes” engage in to make the audience “get it” or to make a living, but who also believe that apart from all the tricks that they or anyone else play, there is still some valid core of psychic experience. They may point anecdotally, for example, to an experience or two of theirs that they believe were real and otherwise inexplicable, even though they are well aware of the “performance pressure” that drives them to cheat “some of the time” as they would put it.

Finally, I want to just mention, on the question of whether the “Believer” in this thread thinks that professed cold readers use mundane methods (a question that appears to be rather important to many people here), spiritualists have sometimes made the claim that even skeptics (or as a Believer may say, “anyone”) might produce a good reading: Even if they think that what they’re doing is fake or false, they may still be able to “convey” something “real” to the subject, although the faker would not understand that he or she was doing it. I’m not arguing for that position, but I’m just noting that that is one way that’s been used before to reply to the admissions of psychics and mediums that they’d been faking it. This was the reaction of many spiritualists to the Fox Sisters’ confessions later in life (or “confessions” bracketed by quotes if you’re a spiritualist) that they’d started the “rapping craze” back in 1848 by cracking their toes.

Welcome to the boards littlegidding! Judging by your post, you’ll fit in fine :D!

Ed Dames commenting about remote viewing. Heard on the Coast To Coast radio show last night:

“We never allow ourselves to think”.

:wink:

And here’s something to chomp on:

Ed Dames also said, last night, that he will be doing a live tv special in Japan demonstrating his remote viewing capability as he helps Japanese police solve some cases. I don’t know when this will happen, but he made it sound like it would be soon.

Should be most interesting…

Why would this be anymore interesting than if praagh or Lekatt were going to try to help the Japanese police?
If Lekatt was the one going to help the JP, I’d…
Oh, I see your point.

Being on Coast to Coast lowers relative credibility in my book

It does?

Does it lower the credibility of Seth Shostak and Michio Kaku, in your book?

http://www.mkaku.org/

http://www.seti.org/about_us/info_for_media/in_the_news.html

Or does it only lower the credibility of people you disagree with?

Just curious…

Coast-to-Coast consists 99.9%+ of conspiracy theories, bad science, crackpot theories, and other random drivel (Which seems like it would often directly contradict theories presented in earlier shows). While something being on that show is not an absolute mark of said thing being utter bullshit, it’s a very good warning flag.

For example, the latest discussions I’ve heard about from the show (Due to a particularly fanatic fan who constantly keeps everyone on some mailing lists up-to-date on the shows business, like we all care) include: The US is invading Iraq to gain controll of an alien Stargate that Saddam knows about, and we need to get controll of before he figures it out, and that (Contradicting the show’s earlier claim that Al Quida had gotten members into the facility where the Columbia’s tiles were applied to sabotauge them by spitting into the adhesive and cause the Shuttle’s destruction) Columbia was shot down, either by Germany or the aliens, to try and persuade the US not to invade Iraq, so we wouldn’t find that alien technology.

Any statement started with “I heard on Coast-to-Coast…” will set off alarm bells imediatly. Sorry, but they just don’t hold much in the way of credibility.

Hey, is lekatt still here? In the “How do we know what happen after we died?” thread he claimed to have PROOF that he’d had a near-death experience. I wanna ask him what it is. (My apologies to those who have heard it X times before, but there is no way I’m sloughing through this entire thread to look for it, assuming it’s in here.) So again: lekatt, I would like to hear your PROOF that you did, in fact, have a near-death experience, if you don’t mind.

If I already agree with someone they don’t need credibility. I already agree with them.

credibility: 1. The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief.

Being booked on CtoC doesn’t have an effect on facts or logic, (which stand or fall more or less on their own)- only people.

But in short, all people whether i agree with them or not.
ThanX for asking