# Contemporary Library Time---WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057 "2013-01-23T00:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/81 "2013-01-24T02:43:22Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Huh? I do no such thing. I have nothing but contempt for religion or the religious. In the scenario as presented I’d keep my mouth shut because I care about my friend and don’t want to turn their loved one’s funeral into a fight because that would upset them. That has nothing to do with respect and doesn’t even remotely resemble the library situation. You admitted that you would respect your friend’s religious event but your position toward strangers in a library is that it’s there problem. The whole point of the church example given you by Hottius Maximus is to point out the conflict in your position. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/82 "2013-01-24T02:52:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You admitted that you would respect your friend’s religious event but your position toward strangers in a library is that it’s there problem. The whole point of the church example given you by Hottius Maximus is to point out the conflict in your position. Please note the part where I **did not** say I’d respect a religious event. That part is extremely important. The accusation that I respect religion is inaccurate and incredibly offensive. What I said was that I would keep quiet because being there to support my friend involves being quiet and supportive, not getting into fights with random retards. The reason I would be quiet would be because chatter generally isn’t conducive to supporting a friend at a funeral, **not** because I give a shit about [redacted] The church analogy is faulty and irrelevant. Stop trying to translate it to the library. In a library I’m not trying to support a bereaved friend, nor is my friend in a mood that’s probably not receptive to inane chatter. Nor are people who can’t read with noise around my friends. Stop trying to make the analogy work, it doesn’t. EDIT: just realised insulting the religious probably includes members here, so edited to avoid breaking that rule. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/83 "2013-01-24T02:58:54Z")
> [@nashiitashii](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat the same thing? _ **There are quiet areas designated for study.** _ It’s not the whole building, but it’s a significant portion of it. If you’re at the reference or check-out desk, you don’t need to whisper. > > Please read for comprehension before trying to tell me that I’m not understanding you. I stated the same thing in post 23 so I don’t know why you feel compelled to argue with me. As for your reference desk I can’t see it so it’s impossible to comment on but if you’re next to a quiet area I would expect you to keep the noise down to a minimum. All the librarians I’ve dealt with speak in soft tones. Not a whisper but there is a definite lowering of volume. It doesn’t just keep the noise down. It sets the tone on how they expect the patrons to speak. It’s quiet effective IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/84 "2013-01-24T03:03:41Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Please note the part where I **did not** say I’d respect a religious event. That part is extremely important. The accusation that I respect religion is inaccurate and incredibly offensive. What I said was that I would keep quiet because being there to support my friend involves being quiet and supportive, not getting into fights with random retards. The reason I would be quiet would be because chatter generally isn’t conducive to supporting a friend at a funeral, **not** because I give a shit about [redacted] > > The church analogy is faulty and irrelevant. Stop trying to translate it to the library. In a library I’m not trying to support a bereaved friend, nor is my friend in a mood that’s probably not receptive to inane chatter. Nor are people who can’t read with noise around my friends. Stop trying to make the analogy work, it doesn’t. > > EDIT: just realised insulting the religious probably includes members here, so edited to avoid breaking that rule. OK, my apologies, not only do you not care about people in libraries, you don’t care about someone’s religion but DO respect the wishes of people who are your friend. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/85 "2013-01-24T03:15:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, my apologies, not only do you not care about people in libraries, You say that like it’s unreasonable. I said I won’t whisper because I disagree that it’s rude to not whisper. You’ve made it about me not caring about the fact some people have trouble reading while talking. You’ve had it explained that there is recourse for those people, and that libraries don’t require people to whisper, so I think it’s reasonable for me to not care. I don’t care that most books a library stocks are in normal print; is that being rude to vision impaired patrons? I don’t care that libraries don’t have audiobook versions of their entire stock; is that being rude to dyslexic patrons? I don’t care that the non-English sections tend to be miniscule, is that being rude to ESLs? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/86 "2013-01-24T03:40:53Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > See, you’re not getting that your preferences do not equal good manners, and that anyone who doesn’t conform to your preferences is not automatically rude. And you use a phrase like “manner appropriate for the environment you’re in” as though your opinion of what constitutes appropriate is immutable fact. > > Maybe you think the world revolves around you, but I am very aware that other people have other preferences and prefer a “live and let live” philosophy. To me, YOU are being rude in wanting to impose your preferences. In your house, you get to decide the the “manner appropriate for the environment”. In a public library (or any public place), you don’t. > [@Magiver](#): > > Manners as a discipline involve a skill-set designed to accommodate the people around you. They are not up for debate. You simple don’t understand the concept. > > You lack this skill and are trying to argue on an individual basis (yours). You apparently feel justified bothering other people because it fits YOUR needs. It’s bad manners to intrude on the peace of others around you. In this specific thread that means talking in whispered tones and not allowing children to run and scream through a room. > [@Sevencl](#): > > Uh, manners are indeed up for debate. Hell, I can’t think of anything MORE up for debate. Go check out any of the recent threads that discuss what people consider to be good manners in specific situations, and look at all the debate. > > So yeah, get over yourself. You have opinions, not the right to dictate what constitutes correct behaviour. > > @ thirdwarning: I disagree that it’s everyone else’s responsibility to make allowances. If you have a problem it’s your problem, not everyone else’s. Therefore, if you can’t concentrate in a noisy situation, bring noise-cancelling headphones like someone who posted earlier does. > [@Magiver](#): > > It has nothing to do with authority. You really and truly do not understand the concept of good manners. Not even a little. Both of you stop the sniping at each other and take it to the pit and out of this thread starting immediately if you wish to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/87 "2013-01-24T03:49:17Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > You say that like it’s unreasonable. I said I won’t whisper because I disagree that it’s rude to not whisper. You’ve made it about me not caring about the fact some people have trouble reading while talking. You’ve had it explained that there is recourse for those people, and that libraries don’t require people to whisper, so I think it’s reasonable for me to not care. I don’t care that most books a library stocks are in normal print; is that being rude to vision impaired patrons? I don’t care that libraries don’t have audiobook versions of their entire stock; is that being rude to dyslexic patrons? I don’t care that the non-English sections tend to be miniscule, is that being rude to ESLs? You don’t have control of the services in a library. You should care the patrons get the best bang for the buck. You should care about what you can do within reason to make life easier for those around you and I suspect you do given your response on how you would react to a friend’s needs. It’s not a huge leap to extend that to strangers. Since a librarian has acknowledged that designated areas of quiet exist within libraries outside my area I suspect it’s still commonly practiced elsewhere. You’ll treat patrons as you see fit and I’ll treat them as they would like to be treated. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/88 "2013-01-24T03:54:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You don’t have control of the services in a library. You should care the patrons get the best bang for the buck. > > You should care about what you can do within reason to make life easier for those around you and I suspect you do given your response on how you would react to a friend’s needs. It’s not a huge leap to extend that to strangers. > > Since a librarian has acknowledged that designated areas of quiet exist within libraries outside my area I suspect it’s still commonly practiced elsewhere. You’ll treat patrons as you see fit and I’ll treat them as they would like to be treated. Going to assume you made this post before seeing my post. Let’s stop the heated hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/89 "2013-01-24T03:56:27Z")
Within reason, sure, I’ll help someone out. I used to get a lot of requests for computer helps or to fetch books from high shelves. To expect them to go around whispering is, in my opinion, too large an imposition on everyone. My reason for listing those other instances where someone has a problem with reading was that being unable to read around talking is, like those, a problem all patrons don’t experience. And, like the small selection of large print, audio and foreign books most libraries offer, someone explained that modern libraries, while more lenient toward noise than in your day, will usually set aside a quiet area for those people. So their needs are being met, but the rest of us aren’t being imposed upon to do so. I think that works great. EDIT: I thought by “sniping” you meant the comments about each other, Idle. Can you split this to a pit topic, please? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/90 "2013-01-24T05:34:32Z")
Why are you even bothering to argue with **Sevencl**? He thinks it’s perfectly fine to talk during movies, do you \*really \*expect him to be quiet in a library where people \*are \*expected to speak? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/91 "2013-01-24T05:37:10Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Why are you even bothering to argue with **Sevencl**? He thinks it’s perfectly fine to talk during movies, do you \*really \*expect him to be quiet in a library where people \*are \*expected to speak? I’ve asked the two in question to stop the hijack. Now this is for everyone else. If you have a problem with another poster, you take it to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/92 "2013-01-24T05:51:40Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Going to assume you made this post before seeing my post. Let’s stop the heated hijack. well honestly I didn’t think we were snipping that badly but upon reading your compilation it wasn’t the most uplifting dialogue. My apologies to all. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/93 "2013-01-24T05:58:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well honestly I didn’t think we were snipping that badly but upon reading your compilation it wasn’t the most uplifting dialogue. My apologies to all. Likewise, and I also didn’t realise talking about whether or not talking in a library is acceptable, in a thread about how library environments have changed, in which the OP specifically mentioned talking now being acceptable, was a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/94 "2013-01-24T12:31:03Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > Yes I am obviously aware that over 30 years have passed. But how does the fact that the library now offers DVDs and movies as well as computers excuse the patrons from having loud conversations? I mentioned this in one of the first replies, but libraries are much much busier nowadays than they’ve ever been. More people = more noise. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/95 "2013-01-24T14:37:18Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I mentioned this in one of the first replies, but libraries are much much busier nowadays than they’ve ever been. More people = more noise. This is really my point. The fact that there’s a lot more people using the library combined with the fact that, at least in my experience, service points usually have some sort of technology that makes noise (scanners, printers, computers, etc.) means that whispering, especially at service points (circulation, reference) isn’t expected or sometimes effective. In larger libraries, quiet areas are significantly separated from the areas where folks can talk and collaborate, but in smaller libraries, the divide is usually a “there are study rooms in the back with a quiet zone just outside of them; all of our printing, circulation and reference services are toward the front entrance” system. If that isn’t good enough, then perhaps the folks complaining about it should campaign and fundraise for the library to be enlarged and/or renovated. In the academic library where I work, we’ve got a relatively small floorplan with around 13k books, DVDs, etc. Our reference/circulation counter is at the very front so that 1) we’re visible to all who walk in and 2) we can see what’s going on if the front gate alarm goes off. We have study carrels with computers in them throughout the library, situated on the side opposite the stacks. At the very back of the library, we have study rooms and tables situated for quiet work and group work. There’s not a ton of extra space and the place gets a lot of traffic during certain times of day, but it’s the space that was allotted to the library when the [also small] campus opened several decades ago. Back then, the stacks also used to be entirely non-circulating and there weren’t as many computers available to use. Because a lot of professors assign group work and multimedia projects, it’d be problematic at best to go around shushing students who are talking in a group at one of the large tables near the circulation/reference desk. Our purpose has changed a bit, even within the academic setting, as we’re not just a hub for study, but one where students can print their projects/assignments/readings, get help with personal and school research, spend break time surfing the internet, work on multimedia projects, and collaborate with classmates on a group project. We’re literally the only place on campus that has a significant number of computers and no expectation that folks be working on one computer per person with no chatting, so we’d cut our student traffic in half if not more if we restricted folks to minimal talking throughout the whole library. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/96 "2013-01-24T15:06:41Z")
> [@nashiitashii](#): > > This is really my point. The fact that there’s a lot more people using the library combined with the fact that, at least in my experience, service points usually have some sort of technology that makes noise (scanners, printers, computers, etc.) means that whispering, especially at service points (circulation, reference) isn’t expected or sometimes effective. In larger libraries, quiet areas are significantly separated from the areas where folks can talk and collaborate, but in smaller libraries, the divide is usually a “there are study rooms in the back with a quiet zone just outside of them; all of our printing, circulation and reference services are toward the front entrance” system. If that isn’t good enough, then perhaps the folks complaining about it should campaign and fundraise for the library to be enlarged and/or renovated. Preach it. I work in an academic library, and my office is next to a student work area in a weird little alcove where the walls don’t fully reach the ceiling, so there is absolutely no sound barrier between this space and theirs. The guy sitting on the other side of the wall right now can hear my keyboard clacking as I type this, and I can hear him shift in his seat and turn the pages of his book. Fortunately for all of us, this is not a designated quiet area. The library has four – three entire floors and one enclosed area on this floor. So when students have the gall to entire this office and tell me and my supervisor to keep our voices down, we just put on our best smiles and cheerfully remind them of the locations of the quiet areas (and, depending on how polite the student was or was not, remind them that this is a working office and talk happens). At the same time, when the students are talking loudly enough to disturb my work, I remind myself that this is not a quiet area and just put on my earphones and music. It would be super nice if our office were in a better, quieter location, but that’s not possible in this building so we have to suck it up. The library does have a strict policy about no cellphone use except in the stairwells, and this and the rule regarding quiet areas are enforced by patrolling security staff. If someone is making noise in a quiet area, patrons are encouraged to find the security person and ask them to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/97 "2013-01-24T16:46:22Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > Preach it. > > I work in an academic library, and my office is next to a student work area in a weird little alcove where the walls don’t fully reach the ceiling, so there is absolutely no sound barrier between this space and theirs. The guy sitting on the other side of the wall right now can hear my keyboard clacking as I type this, and I can hear him shift in his seat and turn the pages of his book. > > Fortunately for all of us, this is not a designated quiet area. The library has four – three entire floors and one enclosed area on this floor. So when students have the gall to entire this office and tell me and my supervisor to keep our voices down, we just put on our best smiles and cheerfully remind them of the locations of the quiet areas (and, depending on how polite the student was or was not, remind them that this is a working office and talk happens). At the same time, when the students are talking loudly enough to disturb my work, I remind myself that this is not a quiet area and just put on my earphones and music. It would be super nice if our office were in a better, quieter location, but that’s not possible in this building so we have to suck it up. > > The library does have a strict policy about no cellphone use except in the stairwells, and this and the rule regarding quiet areas are enforced by patrolling security staff. If someone is making noise in a quiet area, patrons are encouraged to find the security person and ask them to intervene. I would like to point out that the idea of a quiet zone doesn’t mean there’s an expectation of zero noise. Everything we do makes noise but not all noise is distracting. The term “white noise” describes noise that is not objectionable. Not only can it be ignored it can be used to drown out other noises so they can be ignored. The volume of any noise certainly enters into the equation as does the nature of the noise. I think it’s obvious that someone speaking can create a situation that is distracting. When someone speaks it is a form of communication. Not only that, it is our main form of communication. When we generate an idea or read something in print it is the spoken work we hear inside our mind. For this reason it is distracting to hear someone talk while reading or talking to someone else. It becomes difficult to concentrate because we recognize the words spoken and it draws our attention away. The spoken word competes with unspoken thoughts. For this reason we try to limit the volume of the spoken word in Library rooms where there is the expectation of people reading. It’s the same reason businesses attempt to limit cell phone use in communal areas. [Obligatory Family Guy reference.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv-s1K3BHHI) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/98 "2013-01-24T18:03:45Z")
> [@ioioio](#): > > I asked the head librarian if it would be possible to put some chairs or benches close to the checkout counter (but not in the way) for people who had disabilities that make it difficult to stand in line for a long time. I was told no, it would be a hazard to the children who run around the area. You could make a valid case of reasonable accommodation under the Americans with Disabilities Act for those chairs and benches. Despite what some parents may say, children running around do not hold any protected group status under ADA. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/99 "2013-01-24T20:37:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When someone speaks it is a form of communication. Not only that, it is our main form of communication. When we generate an idea or read something in print it is the spoken work we hear inside our mind. For this reason it is distracting to hear someone talk while reading or talking to someone else. It becomes difficult to concentrate because we recognize the words spoken and it draws our attention away. The spoken word competes with unspoken thoughts. > > For this reason we try to limit the volume of the spoken word in Library rooms where there is the expectation of people reading. It’s the same reason businesses attempt to limit cell phone use in communal areas. [Obligatory Family Guy reference.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv-s1K3BHHI) I would not say that most areas of the library are devoted to reading these days. If one chooses to sit in a high traffic part of the library to read, one needs to learn to tolerate conversation. There are plenty of sections in the average library that are designated quiet zones, and usually there are areas outside of that which are commonly used by students, tutors and study groups. If you aren’t in a quiet zone, you are not entitled to require everyone around you to keep to whispering at loudest. It’s not your place to dictate the rules of a place which you do not work, own or run. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057/100 "2013-01-25T05:56:53Z")
> [@nashiitashii](#): > > It’s not your place to dictate the rules of a place which you do not work, own or run. It;s not your place to put words in other peoples mouth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-library-time-wtf/648057.md?page=6)