# Contemporary philosophers denying "the real world" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462 "2006-02-28T15:25:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/1 "2006-02-28T15:25:47Z")
Are there any contemporary philosophers who claim the world doesn’t exist in a form similar to what we think? Or any who claim the world could as well be created 2 mins ago? Or anything that results in historical facts being denied or doubted? ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/2 "2006-02-28T15:34:07Z")
Well, to answer that, we’ll need to define “world”, “exist”, “form”, “think”, “created”, and “fact”, for starters. 🙂 Definitely GD territory. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/3 "2006-02-28T16:09:49Z")
Well, the “world created 2 mins ago” thing is a subset of “you can’t know for sure that the world exists outside of your head”, which is known as “solipsism”. It is a briefly illuminating notion to entertain, if only for the solidly lethal poke it provides to any pretentious “I’m only going to believe in things I know for certain” perspective that one might otherwise entertain. But once you’ve done that number, there’s nothing you can build directly on it, i.e., you aren’t going to run across too many philosphers whose grand treatise is that your life and the world around you is just a meaningless dream you’re having. Even the eastern spiritual teachings, which famously hold that “the everyday life is an illusion”, don’t mean _that_, but rather that the struggles and value-systems of the world are not of the worth that is attached to them. What some philosphers _do_ build from the solipsism-question is the unavoidable centrality of human uncertainty. If life in its entirety has to be approached on faith (i.e., “I don’t know for certain that any of this is real, but I’m going to proceed on the assumption that it is”), the precedent has been set for doing the best you can to ascertain what is so but then going with that with neither perpetual fretting over lack of absolute certainty nor pompous pretense of possessing it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/4 "2006-02-28T17:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Are there any contemporary philosophers who claim the world doesn’t exist in a form similar to what we think? [/quote] Do the producers of “The Matrix” count as “contemporary philosophers”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/5 "2006-02-28T17:19:01Z")
Buddhists? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/6 "2006-02-28T17:38:14Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] Well, the “world created 2 mins ago” thing is a subset of “you can’t know for sure that the world exists outside of your head”, which is known as “solipsism”. [/QUOTE] No, that’s skepticism. Solipsism is the affirmative belief that the world isn’t as perceived. Very few serious philosophers are solipsists, because it’s unsupportable. Lots of them are skeptics, because skepticism is rational. However, it’s not like it really matters. So what if the world isn’t as I think it is? So far it’s been pretty consistent, so I’ll worry about wandering off the edge when I get there. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/7 "2006-02-28T17:43:01Z")
\ Even though we sometimes deny the existence of _Great Debates_, it nonetheless exists and therefore, Mod has decreed all questions such as this shall be placed there. Thus sayeth Mod. Moveth. \ ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/8 "2006-02-28T17:58:54Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Are there any contemporary philosophers who claim the world doesn’t exist in a form similar to what we think? [/QUOTE] Philip K. Dick, fictionalizing philosopher extraordinaire, wrote a great deal about his interpretation of reality which borrowed heavily from Gnosticism. Check out his nonfictional series of essays in The Shifting Realities of Philip K. Dick, or any of his novels, which in addition to being great fiction also talk about his philosophy. Valis in particular. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/9 "2006-02-28T18:11:14Z")
[QUOTE=Cliffy] No, that’s skepticism. Solipsism is the affirmative belief that the world isn’t as perceived. Very few serious philosophers are solipsists, because it’s unsupportable. Lots of them are skeptics, because skepticism is rational. However, it’s not like it really matters. So what if the world isn’t as I think it is? So far it’s been pretty consistent, so I’ll worry about wandering off the edge when I get there. –Cliffy [/QUOTE] Clarification readily accepted. Concluding that, in fact, the world _doesn’t_ exist outside your head is solipsism, whereas positing the question of _whether or not_ such is the case is not; and as I alluded before, it is the latter that is philosophically useful. Solipsism itself is just kinda useless. Unless you have a dream in which you are a solipsist, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/10 "2006-02-28T18:43:56Z")
Solipsism is sterile because if solipsism is true there’s no point in trying to convince us annoying illusionary people that solipsism is true. If you’ve discovered that you’re the only real person in the universe and the rest of us are just hallucinations, why would you argue with the hallucinations over whether they are hallucinations or not? We’re just hallucinations, we don’t matter. Likewise if you say that the proposition “propositions are either true or false” is false, you’ve embraced a logical paradox. If you really believe that, then there’s no point in talking to you, because there’s no way we can agree on anything. If existance is meaningless, then trying to convince people that existance is meaningless is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/11 "2006-02-28T19:18:56Z")
The great early-21st-century philosopher **Liberal** lays out his case why the universe is not real in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303953) Unfortunately, I still haven’t read that thread further than Post 65, in which he explains the basic arguments. Still on my list of Things To Do Before I Die… ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/12 "2006-02-28T19:38:14Z")
OK! From the top. > [@](#): > > Are there any contemporary philosophers who claim the world doesn’t exist in a form similar to what we think? To answer this question, we need to know, or decide, what the “form we think the world exists in” actually is - in other words: a. Is there such a thing as “folk metaphysics”? b. If so, what does that constitute? Other opinions are welcome, but I would say that the “obvious” view of the world would be along the lines of: 1. Things such as chairs, tables, and trees have existence independent of the mind, and are made out of something called “matter”. 2. “I” exist, I am something that can be distinguished from “my body”, I have “thoughts” and “desires” and “feelings”, I have free will and the ability to make choices and decisions. 3. Other people exist, and have the same distinction between “mind” and “body” that I perceive in myself. In other words, Cartesian substance dualism. I can’t think of _any_ contemporary philosopher who’s an uncritical disciple of Descartes, so the answer to this question would be “Yes, all of them claim that.” > [@](#): > > Or any who claim the world could as well be created 2 mins ago? If by “could as well” you mean something like “a world that was created two minutes ago could be identical to a world that was created 13 billion years ago, or one that has been in existence for an infinite time”, then I don’t see how _any_ philosopher could make a different claim. Again, the answer to the question is “Yes, all of them claim that.” > [@](#): > > Or anything that results in historical facts being denied or doubted? To answer this, we need to know what an “historical fact” is, and how it differs from an “ordinary” fact. Any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/13 "2006-02-28T19:56:10Z")
Having read a couple more posts of that thread, there was this link to [Donald Hoffman](http://edge.org/q2005/q05_4.html#hoffman). Seems he qualifies as a Contemporary philosopher, and he certainly has an interesting twist on whether “the world exists in a form similar to what we think”. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/14 "2006-02-28T20:53:38Z")
wow. You guys certainly got philosphical on my ass. I probably should explain what I wanted with my question. As you’ve probably heard [David Irving](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) has recently been imprisoned for denying the holocaust. Now my thought was, guys like ol’ Parmenides (IIRC) would also actually “deny the holocaust.” So I was wondering if there were any contemporary philosophers of whom you could say the same. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/15 "2006-02-28T21:08:31Z")
I know what you mean. The other day, I ordered a cheeseburger with mayonnaise and pickles. When they did not bring me a turkey sub with mustard and glue, I was furious. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/16 "2006-02-28T21:09:15Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Now my thought was, guys like ol’ Parmenides (IIRC) would also actually “deny the holocaust.” So I was wondering if there were any contemporary philosophers of whom you could say the same. [/QUOTE] Ahh, I see what you mean. You’re probably going to have to go back as far as [McTaggart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._M._E._McTaggart) to find as thorough-going an anti-realist as Parmenides; unless anyone can think of a modern philosopher with similar views about time… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/17 "2006-02-28T21:24:07Z")
Dummett is a pretty stodgy antirealist. Chihara, too. And to a lesser extent, Field. (His embroglio over “3 is a prime number” being false is still being argued as to interpretation, even by Field.) ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/18 "2006-02-28T21:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I know what you mean. The other day, I ordered a cheeseburger with mayonnaise and pickles. When they did not bring me a turkey sub with mustard and glue, I was furious. Did I come across as angry or disappointed? I, of course, thought it was great with all those thoughtful answers. It was just way more than I had expected or needed. And thanks for the answers second time around also. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/19 "2006-03-01T06:23:05Z")
I think solipsism is a great philosophy, and I can’t understand why everyone doesn’t accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462/20 "2006-03-01T14:22:21Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] I think solipsism is a great philosophy, and I can’t understand why everyone doesn’t accept it. [/QUOTE] No, you don’t, and yes, you can. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contemporary-philosophers-denying-the-real-world/346462.md?page=2)