# Continue to protest while Iraqi's dance in the streets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612 "2003-04-09T18:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/41 "2003-04-10T05:46:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Another thing…While the fact that chemical weapons were not used is a good thing, it does lead to an obvious question: Why not? I.e., were we really able to disrupt Saddam’s regime so badly and rapidly that they were unable to carry out the plans to use them…Or, did he use much more restraint than we give him credit for in the ultimate “nothing to lose” situation? This, I believe, is due to an incredible and yet little-mentioned success in this war - that of Special Forces and intelligence. In the last decade since the Gulf war, one of the most important re-structurings in the U.S. military was the rise of special forces as a key component. There were THOUSANDS of them in Iraq. Perhaps tens of thousands. For a long time before the war. And we’re now realizing that U.S. intelligence was superb. The U.S. could phone Iraqi leaders on their cell phones, contact them by FAX and E-mail, and meet them face-to-face with in-place operatives. There were moles in Saddam’s regime. The intel that led to the two ‘leadership strikes’ against Saddam came from a mole within the regime. The strike that got Chemical Ali was directed by a mole inside the regime. There were sixteen divisions in Iraq that simply did not fight. They didn’t surrender, they didn’t run away - they just sat there. Speculation is that special forces had made contact with the leaders of these divisions, and deals were cut to keep them out of the fight. They wouldn’t surrender or run, because if Saddam survived they would be killed for it. So they faked being in place, but didn’t fight. Notice that we heard almost nothing from the west side of Iraq through the entire war? No embedded reporters, nothing. That’s because that whole area was swarming with special forces. The ‘scud box’, the area where the scud launchers were suspected to be, was secured before the first shots in the war were fired. Shots we knew about, that is. Then there was that first leadership strike, which apparently didn’t get Hussein but almost certainly got some of his lieutenants. Right from the start of the war, Iraqi command and control was in disarray. Remember the ‘coalition of the willing’? It had some 15 countries who were offering ‘private’ support, but were publically staying neutral or hostile to the U.S. That probably included countries like Jordan and maybe even Iran. I hope stories about some of this stuff come out after the war. But no doubt many of them will remain secret to avoid compromising methods and sources, and to keep from giving away capabilities. But certainly, we’ll learn a lot in the next few months. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/42 "2003-04-10T06:09:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > **I’d say that this is some pretty creative accounting, walloon. Not only have you not tallied civilian casualties as others have pointed out but you haven’t added military ones.** I haven’t tallied civilian casualties? See my post three above yours. Of course civilian casualties are tragedies. But we have no independent verification of the number of civilian casualties, much less a determination of how many of those were caused by coalition fire and how much by Iraqi fire. In fact, we don’t even have a recent statement directly from the Iraqi government to the world press; only a report from Abu Dhabi TV. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/43 "2003-04-10T06:52:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Okay, for all of you who think this was a ‘rotten’ war. I have one question: > > If you could roll back the last month and stop the war, would you? > > If not, doesn’t that mean you were wrong? > > If so, how would you explain that decision to the millions of Iraqis who would still be living under Saddam’s thumb? \*\* Oh! _Excellent_ question! You should start a thread on it. Or someone should… ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/44 "2003-04-10T07:05:37Z")
“The U.S. now possesses the records of a government at the center of the terror universe.” Huh? Has there been any news of any records being captured? The Iraqis will have had ample time to destroy many of their records especially their top-secret intelligence reports which were probably kept in a small number of locations. As for the WMD if it was the Special Forces which prevented them from being used they would presumably have been able to find them as well. How can you prevent weapons from being used if you don’t know where they are? And if they do know where they are, we would have seen at least some of them for the propoganda value. But we haven’t. My guess is that many of the weapons have been distributed to die-hard followers of the regime many of whom have likely fled the country. I suspect that some of them will end up in the hands of terrorists thereby completely defeating the purpose of the war. As I have repeated many times the war makes it **more** likely that Iraqi bio/chem weapons end up in the hands of terrorists and nothing that has happened so far suggests otherwise to me. This alone may make Islamic terrorists vastly more dangerous. It’s way too premature to think that recents events mean that the war will improve US security or the long-run welfare of the Iraqi people. I am sure many Russians were jubilant at the fall of the Tzar in 1917 but this didn’t mean that their lives would improve. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/45 "2003-04-10T07:09:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > It doesn’t sound like “exceptionally light force” was used against the Republican Guard by any stretch of the imagination…And, while these people were in the service of a horrible regime, they are still people with families… Well, gee, Stalin had a family… what’s the point? The RG were not conscripts. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/46 "2003-04-10T07:26:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > **My guess is that many of the weapons have been distributed to die-hard followers of the regime many of whom have likely fled the country. I suspect that some of them will end up in the hands of terrorists thereby completely defeating the purpose of the war. As I have repeated many times the war makes it more likely that Iraqi bio/chem weapons end up in the hands of terrorists and nothing that has happened so far suggests otherwise to me. This alone may make Islamic terrorists vastly more dangerous.** Re-read this paragraph. What begins as a unsubstantiated guess in your first sentence, becomes virtually a fact by your last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/47 "2003-04-10T07:31:03Z")
“becomes virtually a fact by your last sentence.” And how do you interpret the word “may” in that sentence? As for “unsubstantiated guess” obviously there is no direct evidence but there is both motive and opportunity. Do you the regime will leave all the weapons there for the American soldiers to find? ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/48 "2003-04-10T07:32:42Z")
That should be “do you **think** the regime will leave all the weapons…” ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/49 "2003-04-10T07:54:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > **And how do you interpret the word “may” in that sentence?** The difference between my writing, “becomes a fact by your last sentence,” and “becomes **virtually** a fact by your last sentence.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/50 "2003-04-10T10:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Oh heck, since this is going to be moved to Great Debates anyway, I’ll add a a few rhetorical questions of my own. Where were all those European protestors when Saddam Hussein gassed to death **thousands** of his own people? Where was the protestors’ compassion then? Did I miss those mass rallies? \*\* Yes you damn well did you arrogant SOB. War on Want etc etc etc were all protesting the arming of Saddam when he was the West’s weapon against Iran and our governments were denying he used chemical weapons. I was in the streets protesting. WTF were you and the war crowd? Cheering on Saddam if I remember the 80’s correctly. ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/51 "2003-04-10T10:09:19Z")
To all those who believe that this war has won the U.S. the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, please read Collounsbury’s thread entitled “Lounsbury on Iraq & MENA: War, Politics, Economy & Related Questions”. The Iraqis are far from enamoured of their American “liberators”. Just because many of them had no love for Sadd ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/52 "2003-04-10T10:14:02Z")
To all those who believe that this war has won the U.S. the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, please read Collounsbury’s thread entitled “Lounsbury on Iraq & MENA: War, Politics, Economy & Related Questions”. The Iraqis are far from enamoured of their American “liberators”. Just because many of them had no love for Saddam Hussein does not mean that they are now filled with overwhelming gratitude and loyalty to the U.S. One of the main reasons I was opposed to this war was because I have a personal stake in wishing to keep international levels of anti-American sentiment down. As I am currently living in Europe with my American fiancé I am very much afraid of a backlash. I am also personally offended at the extremely hurtful anti-American comments I have heard both here and in other parts of the world (Asia, the Middle East). I know people personally who are clamouring for American blood right now and just dying to fly the next 'plane into an American skyscraper. So much ill-will in the world… it cannot be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/53 "2003-04-10T10:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originaly posted by Wallon_ > Since September 11, 2001, the United States provided nearly $900 million for Afghan relief and reconstruction. And spent $ 70 billion on GW II, right? (Sorry if someone has already adressed this) ---
**Author:** ![Trjckster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Trjckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trjckster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/54 "2003-04-10T11:10:34Z")
Has it occurred to anyone here that these celebrations might be less than genuine signs of support. These people have been living under iron rule for decades, the smallest sign of opposition was punished by death or torture (sometimes both), to expect them to suddenly reveal their feelings openly seems unlikely even if they believe Sadam is gone. For weeks the iraqi media has been hard at work telling them that the Americans are killing women and children everywere they go, add that to the bombing victims and why should the iraqis believe the Americans are any different from the Ba’ath party. They might be thinking ‘here comes the new boss, same as the old boss, better to be on their good side’. I don’t think I’ve heard about a war protestor who liked Sadam, they all seemed to believe that this war would not solve the iraqi peoples problems. I don’t think they’ve been disproved yet, at least 1200 civilians are dead and no one knows how many of their conscripted sons with them. Millions are without water, medical care and chaos reigns in the streets. The war is not over yet, loyalists still hold the north and I doubt the people in Tikrit will be as welcoming. The Coalition has yet to find any of the chemical weapons it used to justify this war or prove they got Sadam. Even once they take the north and create the new interim government it will be years before they can claim to have created a stable democracy. In that time anything can happen and all the forces that oppose a democratic iraq will be making life as difficult as possible for the new government and the forces protecting it. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/55 "2003-04-10T15:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > Well, gee, Stalin had a family… what’s the point? The RG were not conscripts. Is this true? I don’t honestly know the make-up of the Republican Guard. I do know, however, that lots of pro-war folks on these boards were arguing that many…if not most…of the soldiers putting up resistance to the Americans were doing so because they were being forced to (e.g., having their families threatened). You can’t have it both ways…Either these guys were willingly fighting for Saddam or they weren’t. By the way, [here](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/international/worldspecial/10CASU.html) is a good article in the NY Times about estimating Iraqi military and civilian casualties. Here’s a quote: > [@](#): > > Neither British nor American military officials will provide even rough estimates of the number of Iraqi soldiers killed in the war, although they occasionally release figures on individual engagements. The most startling such estimate came from Central Command officials on Saturday, when they said that 2,000 to 3,000 Iraqi soldiers had been killed in a three-hour sweep through part of Baghdad by a column of American armored vehicles. No evidence was offered to back the assertion. > > The bombing campaign that accompanied ground actions to squeeze Iraqi military units into ever-smaller “kill boxes” almost certainly left thousands of soldiers dead, perhaps tens of thousands. But the world will probably never know how many, and no Iraqi authority is left to count them and notify their families. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/56 "2003-04-10T16:01:19Z")
Tryckster, This is what I don’t understand about those opposed to the war. They are all opposed to the war, opposed to Saddam, opposed to the Americans killing armed solders, opposed to killing civilians (obviously), opposed to going against the U.N. They seem opposed to doing ANYTHING EXCEPT WAITING. How many people have died or been killed during Saddam’s 24 year reign? Aren’t they important?? The U.N. has been messing around with this guy for over 12 YEARS. Would you let some bully smack your kid around the play ground for 24 years, and just keep mentioning to the police that maybe they should kinda look into it a little? In stead of focusing on how many have died in one of the least bloody wars in the last 100 years, perhaps we should think of how many Iraqi’s won’t be gassed or tortured to death in the next 25 years. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/57 "2003-04-10T16:18:36Z")
christ on a crutch. I love every one of these guys who says “maybe they aren’t really dancing in the streets. perhaps it’s a show. perhaps it’s propaganda.” Get over yourself. You backed a very evil man, and now that he’s gone, the people that had real world experience with his evilness are jubilent, and will be moreso as the days unfold. Go ahead and pat yourself for your noble love of peace. Go ahead and tell yourself that people haven’t been liberated, or that they’re not happy about their freedom. Go ahead and congratulate yourself that you were in the visible majority in this bigger cause. But for fuck’s sake, go do it in your own bedroom. I’d as soon see your political self-love as your sexual self-love. Or find some decency and admit that a great deed has been done. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/58 "2003-04-10T16:30:55Z")
**tagos** > [@](#): > > Yes you damn well did you arrogant SOB [Moderator Hat ON] Tagos, do NOT call people names in this forum. The rest of you, settle down as well. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/59 "2003-04-10T16:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\*…Get over yourself. You backed a very evil man, and now that he’s gone, the people that had real world experience with his evilness are jubilent, and will be moreso as the days unfold… > \*\* You know, I really am going to have to demand that you provide a credible cite that the folks that were Anti-war supported the current Iraqi regime. Otherwise, this statement is just another example of the divisive rhetoric that has been tossed our way with increasing regularity. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612/60 "2003-04-10T17:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Okay, for all of you who think this was a ‘rotten’ war. I have one question: > > If you could roll back the last month and stop the war, would you? > > If not, doesn’t that mean you were wrong? > > If so, how would you explain that decision to the millions of Iraqis who would still be living under Saddam’s thumb? \*\* This post deserves it’s own OP. I notice no lefties have even tried to respond to it here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/continue-to-protest-while-iraqis-dance-in-the-streets/167612.md?page=4)