Just a a general comment. The word “reason” has primary definitions in most dictionaries denoting a process of coming to a conclusion through logic, tacitly meaning “rather than simple belief”. In general speech, however, “reason” is often conflated with “sanity,” so often that it is entered in dictionaries as a sub-definition, as in “she is in danger of losing her reason”.
Swift’s aphorism, and all the modern variants, are examples of the primary definition. A logical conclusion can be attacked by attacking the logical process or by disproving the assumptions used. Belief can be attacked similarly but usually without success because, you know, apples and oranges.
But if “reason” is taken to mean “sanity” than an entirely different discussion is taking place, one that the user of “reason” might not realize is happening.
I don’t want to presume about the OP, but I suspect that is the source of the dispute here.
All these responses are ignoring the fact that the comment @kanicbird is complaining about was not advising him to see a doctor (which I agree would be reasonable). The fact that the comment would have been okay if it had said something completely different is not relevant.
And @Aspenglow , kanicbird has not said “if we allow posters to suggest someone seek professional assistance, then that is intended to discourage others from interacting with you”. That’s simply incorrect. One poster made a comment explicitly discouraging another from interacting with him (on this subject). That’s the common-sense reading of the comment, confirmed by Eyebrows_0f_Doom who said he wanted to stop Czarcasm ‘goading’ kanicbird.
But the comment was saying he lacked the capacity for reason, at least on this particular subject:
That’s not saying someone has reached wrong conclusions, it’s saying they are incapable of reaching correct ones, in the exact same way as saying “you can’t reason someone out of stupidity”. It is clearly attacking another poster.
(I do believe Eyebrows_0f_Doom when he said that was not his intention, but I think similar comments should be modded in future.)
Thank you @DemonTree for explaining something I tried to but failed. Yes it’s the language used that would tend to cause isolation to another poster that was my objection.
There are other interactions than trying to convince someone putatively hallucinating that they are hallucinating and their experienced reality is a sign of illness.
I do think in this case that yes, it’s saying that a person is incapable of reason because of a mental illness. It’s essentially saying, don’t bother to talk to this person because they’re crazy. I can’t see this as anything but an attack.
I have personal experience with this. My brother has, at times, talked to me in a delusional state and there was nothing I could say to get him out of it. Nothing that could get through to him. All I could do was wait until he was more lucid.
I don’t think making a declaration like that based on an OP is helping foster discussion. If nothing else it’s a thread shit. It’s telling everyone to ignore the OP. I don’t think that should be acceptable outside of the Pit.
I think there comes a time when you quit saying “Well, isn’t that interesting -Please tell me more.”, and start saying “We need to quit talking about this as if it was a normal occurrence, and you should seek professional help as soon as possible”, and I think seeing angels and demons and interacting with them without even questioning their existence is such a time. There are many places, on the web and in real life, where people just accept such things without question and stifle inquiries…but I really hope this is not one of those places.
Yeah, this is not about religion. In fact, the DSM-V kinda makes an exception for commonly held or cultural religious beliefs. There is no sect of Christianity which fits the guy’s experience. It is outside the norm for a Christian. This is key to understanding why it’s not a slam on religion.
They are those whose delusions we accept, others we do not. Vociferously.
Consistency is key.
If one is accepted than all should be.
This is not really possible.
I’m not willing to accept every delusional thought. They are free to have them. I don’t care.
Perhaps if you feel you know all the answers they’re seeking, you might want to think otherwise.
Because we can’t know if this was a sincere OP, a AI thing or a Dear Penthouse letter.
Or other.
I mean, the American Psychological Association disagrees. There are a lot of factors that go into cultural beliefs that have nothing to do with mental illness.
It might be irrational, unreasonable and untrue, but that doesn’t make it pathological. Something is only pathological if it significantly interferes with daily functioning.
Although IIRC there’s also a diagnosis for being too into your own religion, though it’s not exactly phrased as such. I’ll get back to you on that one because it’s in my other brain.
Thank you. I was starting to feel crazy myself seeing so many people completely ignore the OP and defend (I assume) the conduct of the other thread in general.
Yeah, I can well believe that there are times when it is impossible to reason with someone due to mental illness. But we aren’t psychiatrists, and anyway can’t diagnose someone based on a message board post. Suggesting someone see a doctor doesn’t assume you are correct in your beliefs, merely that it is worth investigating. Telling other people not to engage with someone based on your armchair diagnosis does make that assumption.
I think I should point out that the comment in question was not a response to the OP, but was talking about kanicbird, who had not asked for help or advice, but had shared his story in response to the OP.
You may be the one person on this board, @Spice_Weasel , that truly understands these distinctions.
I do not. In my head crazy is crazy. I know that’s crude, once you see crazy play out first hand, its very easy to know.
The whys and what fors come later, when they seek or get forced into care.
I don’t even think that’s what we have here.
Think about it, if he was so afraid of a demon who has incorporated itself into his life, how was he able to even write the post without fear of repercussion?
This has been my experience on this board, in my experience there is a degree of group think that justified and hides such behavior as normal as trying to silence or isolate some posters who don’t exactly fit in. For quite some time I even accepted it as normal, though I was such a target for it, and never (or rarely) lodged any objection, which not only allows it to continue, but helps hide this subject which needs to be brought forth.
It is telling that mods even have a hard time even understanding the actual objection, to the point of commenting on a different one it its place, which seems to be 1: either I am not explaining myself or 2: The group think is so ingrained that it is not noticed.
I apologies for any harshness here, I am also attending a meeting.
Diagnose? No. But in the same way that we can have opinions about alleged criminals without being members of the jury, we can have opinions, even informed opinions, about whether or not someone has a mental illness.
A lot of things that are not mental illness can cause hallucinations, though. Medication, illicit drugs, brain tumors, hell, even hypnopompic hallucinations, which is a sleep disorder and might explain historical belief in succubi to begin with. So talking to a doctor about it is pretty good advice.