# Contours of "hate speech" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/1 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")
Directed at me in The Pit: > [@Bricker is a Pile of Shit Sculpted into Human Shape](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bricker-is-a-pile-of-shit-sculpted-into-human-shape/783344/453): > > Where would you get the idea that racism doesn’t exist? It exists. It exists, in part, due to House Pochos like Bricker who worship at the altar of whiteness. My issue is that he deliberately claims it in order to be a mouthpiece of white supremacy. Hate speech? Why, or why not? I personally would not take any action based on this, except that I want rules enforced consistently. Probably the desire to see rules enforced consistently is merely another h bastion of my mouthpieciness of white supremacy. What I am really seeking by making this post is a clear understanding of what constitutes hate speech. This (“House Pochos”) seems a clear negative shot at my racial and ethnic ancestry; a variant of “House (n-word),” the similar derisive term for a black person insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by the left. Or am I wrong in my assumption of “House Pocho?” ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/2 "2018-10-15T16:00:24Z")
I believe you meant to say insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by\*\*\* black people\*\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/3 "2018-10-15T16:01:15Z")
FWIW I find it grotesque and would be absolutely fine with this sort of smear being modded with (or for) extreme prejudice. The point Huey is making is also a nasty point, but it can be made without smears if it needs to be made at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/4 "2018-10-15T16:02:03Z")
I’d never heard of that particular slur. Upon googling, I think it qualifies as an ethnic/racial slur, which IIRC are disallowed by the rules, and thus moddable. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/5 "2018-10-15T16:20:26Z")
Is there a reason you brought it up here instead of reporting the post? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/6 "2018-10-15T16:32:45Z")
I agree with **LHOD** and **andy with all the i’s**. “Why can’t we all just get along” sounds glurgy to my ears, but it is something I wonder about. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/7 "2018-10-15T16:35:24Z")
In case it needs to be said, I disagree profoundly with Bricker over the issue of voter suppression. I just think the disagreement is on issues, not on ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/8 "2018-10-15T16:42:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …What I am really seeking by making this post is a clear understanding of what constitutes hate speech… > [@Turek](#): > > Is there a reason you brought it up here instead of reporting the post? I think the OP addressed that directly. And, yeah, that certainly seems like hate speech to me. Hate speech and ignorant speech since the term is used against Mexicans, and **Bricker** isn’t Mexican. Sort of like calling someone of Korean heritage a “Chinaman”. Some definitions of “hate speech” require it to insight violence, so if that is the definition, let’s just go with “ethnic slur”. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/9 "2018-10-15T16:58:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or am I wrong in my assumption of “House Pocho?” I don’t think so. I agree with the consensus - it’s an ethnic slur and should be modded. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/10 "2018-10-15T17:21:09Z")
Not to mention > [@Huey Freeman](#): > > There are conservative people of color who denounce white supremacy and do not engage in coonery like Condoleezza Rice, Nikki Haley, Anna Navarro, and Colin Powell. But mentioning that an actress should pluck her eyebrows is beyond the pale. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/11 "2018-10-15T17:31:59Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I believe you meant to say > > insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by\*\*\* black people\*\*\*. Well, the point of calling a black person that name is that he or she has already reached a determination of the issues, so I don’t agree that “as determined by black people.” SOME black people obviously don’t share that determination, inasmuch as an actual black person is the subject of the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/12 "2018-10-15T17:34:15Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > Is there a reason you brought it up here instead of reporting the post? Yes. The reason appears in my OP: > [@Bricker](#): > > I personally would not take any action based on this . . . > > What I am really seeking by making this post is a clear understanding of what constitutes hate speech. In other words, I don’t wish to see mod action directed against the poster; I want to understand what we believe hate speech to be and thought this an excellent exemplar of the possible contours of the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/13 "2018-10-15T17:41:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. The reason appears in my OP: But isn’t it for the mods to decide what is hate speech and whether it should be regulated? Switching the complaint from a private report there to a public thread here just means that you have delayed when the mods hear about the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/14 "2018-10-15T17:45:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This (“House Pochos”) seems a clear negative shot at my racial and ethnic ancestry; a variant of “House (n-word),” the similar derisive term for a black person insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by the left. > [@steatopygia](#): > > I believe you meant to say > > insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by\*\*\* black people\*\*\*. No, it’s insufficiently supportive of black issues as determined by Huey Freeman. And I’m not going to defend the racist things that Huey Freeman says. But don’t put the blame for his racist remarks on anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/15 "2018-10-15T17:48:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But isn’t it for the mods to decide what is hate speech and whether it should be regulated? Switching the complaint from a private report there to a public thread here just means that you have delayed when the mods hear about the incident. I’m not interested, he said for the third time, in having the mods take action, so a delay in the mods hearing about it is not a concern that I would particularly harbor. I’m interested in the reaction of the hoi polloi, the unwashed masses, the Teeming Millions that post here, because I believe that this discussion would be helpful in my understanding of how to determine whether a particular exemplar is in fact hate speech. A reported post may result in a warning, a note, or a non-action by a mod, but would not likely be accompanied by a rich discussion of the nuances such as may possibly develop here. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/16 "2018-10-15T17:49:46Z")
My vocabulary is expanding by leaps and bounds thanks to \*\*Scumpup, Bricker \*\*and **Huey Freeman**. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/17 "2018-10-15T17:50:45Z")
A rich discussion of the nuances isn’t really a desired state. How hard, is it really, to have a set of general and consistent rules in one sticky? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/18 "2018-10-15T18:03:57Z")
1. Yes, it’s a racial/ethnic slur. Doesn’t look any better posted by a self-identified person of color than it would coming from a self-identified “white” person. 2. This seems to be the right forum and the right way for **Bricker** to prompt a ‘sense of the SDMB’ discussion. 3. Considering the title of the thread in question, the slur, though hateful, geographically inapt and objectionable on its face, seems to be a rhetorical step up. But wtf do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/19 "2018-10-15T18:19:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not interested, he said for the third time, in having the mods take action, so a delay in the mods hearing about it is not a concern that I would particularly harbor. I’m interested in the reaction of the hoi polloi, the unwashed masses, the Teeming Millions that post here, because I believe that this discussion would be helpful in my understanding of how to determine whether a particular exemplar is in fact hate speech. A reported post may result in a warning, a note, or a non-action by a mod, but would not likely be accompanied by a rich discussion of the nuances such as may possibly develop here. > [@octopus](#): > > A rich discussion of the nuances isn’t really a desired state. How hard, is it really, to have a set of general and consistent rules in one sticky? And there we go down the drain. Personally, my guess is that rules in a sticky is flatly impossible. This thread is a perfect example of why. A word was used that almost everybody had to look up. Here’s the top definition on [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pocho). > [@](#): > > Pocho means americanized Mexican, or Mexican who has lost their culture. (Which largely refers to losing the Spanish.)It is a derogatory term can be someone who’s trying to “act white” but it has been largely embraced by Chicanos with a sense of defeatist humor - We’re pochos, y que? - so that it’s actually becoming more playful than bitter. Kind of like, among blacks, “Whas up Nigga”. How do craft a rule against all such words? A rule merely against ethnic slurs is meaningless. Comments on Others come in a vast spectrum, from utter vileness to humorous exaggeration. They cannot be treated equally, nor should they. And what do you propose the rule would say? That any use earns a warning? A ban? A mod note? Double secret probation? That only certain words do? Does the poster’s ethnicity matters? What about the context of the post? Does it matter is the thread is in the Pit? How about a point system? My judgment call is that pocho should be modded. But since the OP explicitly says that’s not what he wants, I’m at a loss. As someone who is noted for parsing laws down to the last punctuation mark, he is our exemplar of why no general rule or set of them can encompass situations like this, nor does he give any indication at all what he would want to happen if the rule should exist. Bricker, if you want a discussion of the nuances, start one. Don’t sit back and force others to state their opinions so you can later pick them apart. Lay out exactly what you think hate speech encompasses, how the mods should deal with it, and all the other issues that such rules would entail. Then we can respond knowledgeably rather than in the current fog. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/20 "2018-10-15T18:23:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. The reason appears in my OP: > > In other words, I don’t wish to see mod action directed against the poster; I want to understand what we believe hate speech to be and thought this an excellent exemplar of the possible contours of the definition. I believe the consensus is that it is hate speech, not particularly nuanced. And you got a chance to falsely equate the left with word nigger. Great job. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=2)