# Contours of "hate speech" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/21 "2018-10-15T18:26:22Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > Is there a reason you brought it up here instead of reporting the post? FWIW, I reported it. Perhaps there were others who did the same? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/22 "2018-10-15T18:31:31Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And there we go down the drain. > > Personally, my guess is that rules in a sticky is flatly impossible. This thread is a perfect example of why. A word was used that almost everybody had to look up. Here’s the top definition on [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pocho). > > How do craft a rule against all such words? A rule merely against ethnic slurs is meaningless. Comments on Others come in a vast spectrum, from utter vileness to humorous exaggeration. They cannot be treated equally, nor should they. And what do you propose the rule would say? That any use earns a warning? A ban? A mod note? Double secret probation? That only certain words do? Does the poster’s ethnicity matters? What about the context of the post? Does it matter is the thread is in the Pit? How about a point system? > > My judgment call is that pocho should be modded. But since the OP explicitly says that’s not what he wants, I’m at a loss. As someone who is noted for parsing laws down to the last punctuation mark, he is our exemplar of why no general rule or set of them can encompass situations like this, nor does he give any indication at all what he would want to happen if the rule should exist. > > Bricker, if you want a discussion of the nuances, start one. Don’t sit back and force others to state their opinions so you can later pick them apart. Lay out exactly what you think hate speech encompasses, how the mods should deal with it, and all the other issues that such rules would entail. Then we can respond knowledgeably rather than in the current fog. So asking for consistency and clarity is “going down the drain?” Or, perhaps, and vastly more likely, it’s the let’s say octopus is “derailing” gambit. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/23 "2018-10-15T18:41:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A rich discussion of the nuances isn’t really a desired state. How hard, is it really, to have a set of general and consistent rules in one sticky? For the Pit, the forum where the post in the OP took place, there is in fact [exactly such a sticky](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985). It even covers this exact situation: > [@Pit Forum Rules](#): > > If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren’t. No, we aren’t going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here. I agree with you that the rest of the board should similarly collect the rules into one easy-to-find place, but even if they do the Pit will need its own separate version, as it is a somewhat unique beast. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/24 "2018-10-15T18:46:34Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > For the Pit, the forum where the post in the OP took place, there is in fact [exactly such a sticky](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507985). It even covers this exact situation: > > I agree with you that the rest of the board should similarly collect the rules into one easy-to-find place, but even if they do the Pit will need its own separate version, as it is a somewhat unique beast. The issue is the some are and some aren’t. Now, honestly, I am not sure how to write a better and more consistent rule that would not lead to more trouble than it tries to solve. My interest in discussions on language of this sort is if it’s possible ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/25 "2018-10-15T19:17:11Z")
Yeah, this was in my opinion hate speech and probably ban-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/26 "2018-10-15T19:21:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not interested, he said for the third time, in having the mods take action, so a delay in the mods hearing about it is not a concern that I would particularly harbor. I’m interested in the reaction of the hoi polloi, the unwashed masses, the Teeming Millions that post here, because I believe that this discussion would be helpful in my understanding of how to determine whether a particular exemplar is in fact hate speech. A reported post may result in a warning, a note, or a non-action by a mod, but would not likely be accompanied by a rich discussion of the nuances such as may possibly develop here. Seems like we have a strong consensus that this was inappropriate and an example of prohibited hate speech. Are you surprised by that? What’s your view? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/27 "2018-10-15T19:21:51Z")
Definitely a slur that should be modded. Also incredibly stupid. I’m not seeing much controversy here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/28 "2018-10-15T19:25:36Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Seems like we have a strong consensus that this was inappropriate and an example of prohibited hate speech. > > Are you surprised by that? > > What’s your view? I dunno. On second thought, this was obviously a racist epithet. But it was directed against a conservative. Haven’t we liberals decided that that’s okay, under our “Proud to be a hypocrite” initiative? I forget exactly what we decided at the meeting, but the gist is that we really only oppose things like racism because it helps us win elections, not because we’re taking principled stands, so saying racist shit against a conservative is fine. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/29 "2018-10-15T19:36:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I dunno. On second thought, this was obviously a racist epithet. But it was directed against a conservative. Haven’t we liberals decided that that’s okay, under our “Proud to be a hypocrite” initiative? I forget exactly what we decided at the meeting, but the gist is that we really only oppose things like racism because it helps us win elections, not because we’re taking principled stands, so saying racist shit against a conservative is fine. > > Or something. Sorry, that was directed at **Bricker**. I wonder what he thinks about this (he didn’t really say, except he didn’t want moderation of the post) I also wonder if he thought the teeming millions would not find this objectionable. You’d think he’s been around long enough to have some faith in our basic humanity. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/30 "2018-10-15T19:59:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Bricker, if you want a discussion of the nuances, start one. Don’t sit back and force others to state their opinions so you can later pick them apart. Lay out exactly what you think hate speech encompasses, how the mods should deal with it, and all the other issues that such rules would entail. Then we can respond knowledgeably rather than in the current fog. Unfortunately, my view will be of little help. I wouldn’t mod any “hate speech.” I’d mod threats, and let purveyors of hateful speech become deserving social pariahs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/31 "2018-10-15T20:00:54Z")
Or Presidents. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/32 "2018-10-15T20:05:46Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Sorry, that was directed at **Bricker**. I wonder what he thinks about this (he didn’t really say, except he didn’t want moderation of the post) > > I also wonder if he thought the teeming millions would not find this objectionable. You’d think he’s been around long enough to have some faith in our basic humanity. Maybe not. I’d say the jury is still out. The post has apparently been reported. No mod action yet. Is it possible that the mods have withheld even a note, much less a warning, based on my implicit request in this thread? Is the hate speech offense against me, or against the peace and dignity of the board? Or is it just the ordinary lag between report and action that has nothing to do with the subject matter? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/33 "2018-10-15T20:08:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, my view will be of little help. I wouldn’t mod any “hate speech.” I’d mod threats, and let purveyors of hateful speech become deserving social pariahs. I think that’s a legitimate view. Not the views to the powers that be here, but certainly one valid way to handle offensive speech. What did you expect in terms of discussion you wanted to stimulate with your OP? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/34 "2018-10-15T20:10:35Z")
I would hope that the Mods wouldn’t ignore their own rules just because a poster says “Don’t worry about it-it doesn’t bother _me_”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/35 "2018-10-15T20:14:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I think that’s a legitimate view. Not the views to the powers that be here, but certainly one valid way to handle offensive speech. > > What did you expect in terms of discussion you wanted to stimulate with your OP? I thought there’d be a few more free speech-ish absolutists besides me. I thought there might be at least one person taking the view that based on my privileged position, the harm done by racist speech is too minimal to warrant sanction. I expected most people to adopt the view that it was wrong and modd-able, but I did not expect the unanimity that’s appeared thus far. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/36 "2018-10-15T20:15:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say the jury is still out. Still out on what: whether the teeming millions find this objectionable? On our basic humanity? On the one hand, I understand not wanting this sort of nasty shit directed at you. On the other hand, you have, on the very rare occasion, implied that liberals adopt positions out of expediency, not out of genuine belief, and there’s just a touch, a smidgen, of implication here that “the left” is gonna be a bunch of enormous hypocrites here. If it’s the former concern you have, absolutely. If it’s another episode of Hypocrisy Hunters, let’s change the channel. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/37 "2018-10-15T20:19:32Z")
**Bricker** , you say that you’re not seeking action, only clarification. If such a situation were before a court, if I’m not mistaken, the answer would be “Case dismissed, on ground of lack of standing by the plaintiff”, or something to that effect. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/38 "2018-10-15T20:20:23Z")
Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, a distinction between this slur and others is that few have even heard of this one. Did Bricker himself have to look it up? I’m not buying it. On the facts, pocho has made its way into the [dictionary](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pocho): “an American of Mexican parentage, especially one who has adopted U.S. customs and attitudes; an Americanized Mexican.” Nor do I buy the premise of my devil’s advocacy: if somebody ascribes opinions due to someone else’s minority status, that’s something that deserves mod attention in my view. Put another way, there are distinctions between Or-- and worse racial slurs, but I’m not sure they matter qualitatively. Quantitatively, novel situations lean more heavily towards mod notes than dead obvious no-brainers. Speaking as a poster, while I enjoy much of **Huey Freeman** ’s take-no-prisoner’s style, I think he crossed a line here and I hope he agrees. > [@Bricker](#): > > Is the hate speech offense against me, or against the peace and dignity of the board? Really it’s about fostering productive discussion; the latter is highly relevant. The Pit is a safety valve not a mud throwing contest (per se): attacks on minorities for the alleged sin of being minorities have no place on this board and are deserving of mod attention. ETA: > [@Bricker](#): > > I expected most people to adopt the view that it was wrong and modd-able, but I did not expect the unanimity that’s appeared thus far. I hope my fellow posters reconsider _some_ of their skepticism about Bricker in this thread. His clarification makes the OP’s stance appear more legit IMHO. Personally, my free speech absolutism has taken a hit since 2016. Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance weighs more heavily on my mind now. ETA2: > [@Chronos](#): > > **Bricker** , you say that you’re not seeking action, only clarification. If such a situation were before a court, if I’m not mistaken, the answer would be “Case dismissed, on ground of lack of standing by the plaintiff”, or something to that effect. Is that correct? I opine that we discuss mod behavior a little too much in IMHO, at the expense of discussion of best practice. Though admittedly the topic in the OP is a third thing entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/39 "2018-10-15T20:23:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say the jury is still out. The post has apparently been reported. No mod action yet. Is it possible that the mods have withheld even a note, much less a warning, based on my implicit request in this thread? Is the hate speech offense against me, or against the peace and dignity of the board? > > Or is it just the ordinary lag between report and action that has nothing to do with the subject matter? Not mods, mod. There is only one Pit mod and he claims to have a life outside of the board. No one else gets notifications from the Pit. This is the first time I’m on today. I’ll point it out to the others for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/40 "2018-10-15T20:29:36Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Not mods, mod. There is only one Pit mod and he claims to have a life outside of the board. No one else gets notifications from the Pit. For certain values of “having a life,” at least. I’m writing a response to the OP now. Could take a minute, this isn’t a subject I want to rush through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=3)