# Contours of "hate speech" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/41 "2018-10-15T20:31:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I thought there might be at least one person taking the view that based on my privileged position, the harm done by racist speech is too minimal to warrant sanction. Regarding contours, I’d say that _depending upon the context_, certain anti-white epithets might fall into that category, also depending upon the level of this board’s civility bar. Hon-y and cr----r simply lack the sting of other epithets. I suppose that could change in 40 years or so, due to shifting demographics. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/42 "2018-10-15T20:45:12Z")
Since a consensus seems to be emerging among posters that this was actionable and offensive, I wonder if anybody else who noticed it reported it. **Bricker** has explained why he didn’t. FWIW I wouldn’t expect anyone who didn’t read the post in question to report it, and that is AFAICT perfectly understandable - there are several Dopers I don’t read either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/43 "2018-10-15T20:54:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I thought there’d be a few more free speech-ish absolutists besides me. > > I thought there might be at least one person taking the view that based on my privileged position, the harm done by racist speech is too minimal to warrant sanction. > > I expected most people to adopt the view that it was wrong and modd-able, but I did not expect the unanimity that’s appeared thus far. “Free speech-ish absolutism” is all well and good – on your own website. The rules here have always been that hate speech is against the rules. If you have a problem with that rule, then protest the rule itself. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/44 "2018-10-15T21:05:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not to mention But mentioning that an actress should pluck her eyebrows is beyond the pale. > > Regards, > Shodan …what a ridiculous cheap shot. As a defender of Huey in that thread (but not a defender of either that comment or the comment in the OP) and as the only person active in the “plucking eyebrows” thread on the “yes this is problematic” side this comment is obviously aimed directly at me. No I don’t think mentioning that “an actress should pluck her eyebrows” is beyond the pale. I do think Huey’s comment in the OP is completely out of line and should be moderated. I even think what you quoted is pretty fucking bad. So I hope that clears everything up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/45 "2018-10-15T21:12:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not interested, he said for the third time, in having the mods take action > [@Bricker](#): > > Unfortunately, my view will be of little help. I wouldn’t mod any “hate speech.” I feel you’re being disingenuous. Yes, technically you’re not asking the mods to take action against Huey Freeman. But you initiated this discussion of what Huey Freeman posted in a manner that calls it to the attention of the mods. You must know what the outcome of this is going to be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/46 "2018-10-15T21:16:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since a consensus seems to be emerging among posters that this was actionable and offensive, I wonder if anybody else who noticed it reported it. **Bricker** has explained why he didn’t. FWIW I wouldn’t expect anyone who didn’t read the post in question to report it, and that is AFAICT perfectly understandable - there are several Dopers I don’t read either. I stopped reading that thread a while ago so I wasn’t aware of that post until it was mentioned in this thread. As for reporting it now, what’s the point? Somebody has already said that they’ve reported it. Why do we need to have it reported multiple times? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/47 "2018-10-15T21:30:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I thought there’d be a few more free speech-ish absolutists besides me. > > I thought there might be at least one person taking the view that based on my privileged position, the harm done by racist speech is too minimal to warrant sanction. > > I expected most people to adopt the view that it was wrong and modd-able, but I did not expect the unanimity that’s appeared thus far. Your OP talked about your “desire to see rules enforced consistently.” That is incompatible with not wanting to have rules at all. If you yourself don’t believe in your OP then this thread should be closed immediately. A new one can be started by people who want consistent rules. Otherwise your position seems to teeter perilously on backing away when you found that you couldn’t use this thread as another handy way to bash liberals. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/48 "2018-10-15T21:33:40Z")
I, too, had to look the term up. Seems like an uncool thing to say about someone you haven’t met. As the term has an actual specific intention, the giving up of one’s native culture (if I have it kind of close) it sounds like a slur on the level of “Uncle Tom” rather than the n word. In the sense that it means something specific. If I were Latino and someone I never met used it about me, I would certainly never forget that. I don’t think it’s a blind hateful term like the n word, but then again I didn’t know it at all when I woke up today. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/49 "2018-10-15T22:08:23Z")
I’ve never heard the term “pocho” before today. Google tells me it means “A Hispanic person who is not properly knowledgeable/respectful of their Hispanic heritage.” Generally, the terms covered by the hate speech rule are terms that are intended to be broadly insulting to all members of the described group. Chris Rock stand-up routines aside, the n-word is used to describe all black people indiscriminately. “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. The OP’s comparison to “house n-word” doesn’t work because the n-word is such a powerful slur on its own, and one where there’s virtually no context in which it would be acceptable to use against another poster, but comparing it to “house slave” is on-point, and not something I’ve moderated in the past. That being said, I’m trying to gauge the history and nuance of a pejorative I’ve never heard before, based entirely on its Wikipedia entry, so my position here is far from set in stone. I’m discussing the subject with the other mods, and am open to arguments to the contrary from anyone reading this thread, as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/50 "2018-10-15T22:18:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never heard the term “pocho” before today. Google tells me it means “A Hispanic person who is not properly knowledgeable/respectful of their Hispanic heritage.” Generally, the terms covered by the hate speech rule are terms that are intended to be broadly insulting to all members of the described group. Chris Rock stand-up routines aside, the n-word is used to describe all black people indiscriminately. “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. The OP’s comparison to “house n-word” doesn’t work because the n-word is such a powerful slur on its own, and one where there’s virtually no context in which it would be acceptable to use against another poster, but comparing it to “house slave” is on-point, and not something I’ve moderated in the past. > > That being said, I’m trying to gauge the history and nuance of a pejorative I’ve never heard before, based entirely on its Wikipedia entry, so my position here is far from set in stone. I’m discussing the subject with the other mods, and am open to arguments to the contrary from anyone reading this thread, as well. To me it sounds pretty close to “Uncle Tom”. Not sure if that would be moderated in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/51 "2018-10-15T22:24:20Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I, too, had to look the term up. Seems like an uncool thing to say about someone you haven’t met. As the term has an actual specific intention, the giving up of one’s native culture (if I have it kind of close) it sounds like a slur on the level of “Uncle Tom” rather than the n word. In the sense that it means something specific. > If I were Latino and someone I never met used it about me, I would certainly never forget that. I don’t think it’s a blind hateful term like the n word, but then again I didn’t know it at all when I woke up today. It’s meant to be the exact equivalent of House Bleeper. The thrust of the insult is **Huey** claiming that **Bricker** , who I believe is of Salvadoran and not Mexican descent (not that it matters), has thrown in with whitey to incur favor and privelege. Huh. Regina King voices both Huey and Riley Freeman. I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/52 "2018-10-15T22:29:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me it sounds pretty close to “Uncle Tom”. Not sure if that would be moderated in the Pit. Yeah, I think that’s an accurate comparison. And generally speaking, I would not moderate “Uncle Tom” either. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/53 "2018-10-15T22:58:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That being said, I’m trying to gauge the history and nuance of a pejorative I’ve never heard before, based entirely on its Wikipedia entry, so my position here is far from set in stone. I’m discussing the subject with the other mods, and am open to arguments to the contrary from anyone reading this thread, as well. It is my opinion that based on the use in the post, **Huey** meant it to be shocking and hateful. It may be that Mexicans use it in one sense, but that doesn’t mean that others outside of the group should use it. I see a clear difference between calling someone an infested suppurated boil, and a racial slur. Racial slurs should be out of bounds. Second, why is “Uncle Tom”, when used as a label for another poster, not hate speech? A question for all mods and not just **Miller** , perhaps. We have become more aware of misogyny, of LGBQT+ issues, but we could do far, far better with racism on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/54 "2018-10-15T23:04:08Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > It is my opinion that based on the use in the post, **Huey** meant it to be shocking and hateful. It may be that Mexicans use it in one sense, but that doesn’t mean that others outside of the group should use it. I see a clear difference between calling someone an infested suppurated boil, and a racial slur. Racial slurs should be out of bounds. > > Second, why is “Uncle Tom”, when used as a label for another poster, not hate speech? A question for all mods and not just **Miller** , perhaps. We have become more aware of misogyny, of LGBQT+ issues, but we could do far, far better with racism on this board. I agree. The term “Uncle Tom” is pretty offensive. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/55 "2018-10-15T23:17:12Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Second, why is “Uncle Tom”, when used as a label for another poster, not hate speech? A question for all mods and not just **Miller** , perhaps. I think Miller did an excellent job of explaining why in post 49. > [@Babale](#): > > I agree. The term “Uncle Tom” is pretty offensive. Lots of terms in the Pit are more than “pretty” offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/56 "2018-10-15T23:45:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Your OP talked about your “desire to see rules enforced consistently.” That is incompatible with not wanting to have rules at all. Not at all! I don’t want hate speech rules. But if I don’t get that wish, THEN I don’t want to be the only target against whom “hate speech,” can be levied. > [@](#): > > Otherwise your position seems to teeter perilously on backing away when you found that you couldn’t use this thread as another handy way to bash liberals. Again, no: my OP made clear that I did not report the post, and was equally clear in what I sought for the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/57 "2018-10-16T00:09:19Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Second, why is “Uncle Tom”, when used as a label for another poster, not hate speech? A question for all mods and not just **Miller** , perhaps. We have become more aware of misogyny, of LGBQT+ issues, but we could do far, far better with racism on this board. First, I want to note that hate speech is not allowed on the board in any context, not just when applied to other posters. If “Uncle Tom” is considered hate speech, then it’s hate speech full stop, and you can pull a warning for using it to describe Ben Carson, same as if you called him the n-word. We do allow people to make racist arguments on the board. I’m aware that a lot of posters think we shouldn’t - I’d rather not get into that argument at the moment, because it’s a larger issue that the one raised by the OP. In the moderation framework we currently use, if someone wants to start a thread arguing that _The Bell Curve_ contains a lot of good ideas, we’d allow that. If someone wanted to start a thread where they just bitched about how much they don’t like black people, we would not. The former, at least, contains a hypothesis that can be debated. “I don’t like blacks,” does not. The idea that a black person is selling out his own people by voting Republican is, likewise, an idea that we would allow to be debated on the boards. Actually calling another poster an Uncle Tom is an insult, and so not allowed outside of the Pit. Inside of the Pit, though, it’s just an insulting shorthand for an idea that is otherwise allowed to be expressed on the boards. The n-word, on the other hand, isn’t a shorthand for any idea other than, “I really, really don’t like black people.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/58 "2018-10-16T00:11:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never heard the term “pocho” before today. Google tells me it means “A Hispanic person who is not properly knowledgeable/respectful of their Hispanic heritage.” Generally, the terms covered by the hate speech rule are terms that are intended to be broadly insulting to all members of the described group. Chris Rock stand-up routines aside, the n-word is used to describe all black people indiscriminately. “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. The OP’s comparison to “house n-word” doesn’t work because the n-word is such a powerful slur on its own, and one where there’s virtually no context in which it would be acceptable to use against another poster, but comparing it to “house slave” is on-point, and not something I’ve moderated in the past. > > That being said, I’m trying to gauge the history and nuance of a pejorative I’ve never heard before, based entirely on its Wikipedia entry, so my position here is far from set in stone. I’m discussing the subject with the other mods, and am open to arguments to the contrary from anyone reading this thread, as well. It’s not just the term, but pairing it with “House” and explicitly comparing it to “House-Negro”. In that context, it’s meant as a derogatory ethnic slur, as I hope that if someone called another poster here a “House-Negro”, that post would be moderated. I wouldn’t put calling someone a “Pocho” in the same category as “House-Pocho”, and although you say the OP’s comparison doesn’t work, let’s keep in mind that the post in question did that. So, yeah, it not only does work, it was used exactly in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/59 "2018-10-16T00:21:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all! > > I don’t want hate speech rules. > > But if I don’t get that wish, THEN I don’t want to be the only target against whom “hate speech,” can be levied. I agree. And so does seemingly everyone else in this thread. Got any more straw men you want harvested? You still haven’t answered what you want done about such speech. Let’s hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/60 "2018-10-16T00:37:31Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I agree. And so does seemingly everyone else in this thread. Got any more straw men you want harvested? > > You still haven’t answered what you want done about such speech. Let’s hear it. Really? I think he’s answered that several times: whatever is done about other hate speech is what he wants done about this hate speech. And I don’t feel at all comfortable wading into the Uncle Tom debate, as IME it’s a slur used mostly by black people against other black people, and that’s not my lane. But I’m surprised that it’d be allowed in the Pit, and I’ll leave it at that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=4)