# Contours of "hate speech" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/61 "2018-10-16T00:47:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not just the term, but pairing it with “House” and explicitly comparing it to “House-Negro”. In that context, it’s meant as a derogatory ethnic slur, as I hope that if someone called another poster here a “House-Negro”, that post would be moderated. > > I wouldn’t put calling someone a “Pocho” in the same category as “House-Pocho”, and although you say the OP’s comparison doesn’t work, let’s keep in mind that the post in question did that. So, yeah, it not only does work, it was used exactly in that way. To be clear, I was reacting to **Bricker** comparing the exchange to being called a “house n-word,” by which I assumed he meant THE n-word, not “negro.” That what I was referring to when I said the comparison didn’t work. There’s almost no circumstance where one poster refers to another poster as an n-word that wouldn’t immediately draw a warning at the bare minimum, and more likely an insta-ban. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/62 "2018-10-16T00:49:46Z")
[Moderating] Also, the topic of whether or not **Bricker** has a top secret plan to fight hate speech on the SDMB is not germane to the topic. Let’s drop that - he raised a valid question about the application of board rules, and is not required to further justify himself for asking the question in this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/63 "2018-10-16T04:11:15Z")
I also reported Huey’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/64 "2018-10-16T04:47:09Z")
**Miller** has explained why he thinks Pocho is not hate speech. I found his later elaboration helpful, although I still don’t agree. As readers of the posts in question, many of us (most of us?) feel that Huey intended a racial slur AKA hate speech. On re-reading the posts in question, what drove it home was the context of the long Malcolm X quote. It was clear that the point that **Bricker** was a traitor to people of color, specifically Mexican people of color. The commentary was also sprinkled with phrases about lying down at the altar of whiteness. It was very evident that **Huey** was using “pocho” a racial slur. He was not describing someone who merely assimilated. He was describing **Bricker** in the vilest terms that **Huey** could imagine. Further, it’s clear from the mere existence of this thread that **Bricker** considers the slur to be hate speech. I consider his opinion important. I think there is a difference between allowing debate of something, and using derogatory, racist names against a poster. In this instance, the debate here would be what, exactly: whether some minorities are more integrated in mainstream culture? What is mainstream culture? Do you betray your “race” when you relate to more than one culture? None of those topics in any way translate to calling **Bricker** the names he was called in that post. One standard would be nice. Maybe it needs to be that no racial terms are allowed at all if we can’t handle soft lines. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/65 "2018-10-16T05:05:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > To be clear, I was reacting to **Bricker** comparing the exchange to being called a “house n-word,” by which I assumed he meant THE n-word, not “negro.” That what I was referring to when I said the comparison didn’t work. There’s almost no circumstance where one poster refers to another poster as an n-word that wouldn’t immediately draw a warning at the bare minimum, and more likely an insta-ban. But it does work. The n-word is a slur on its own, same as “poncho” when referring to a person. It is not like the term “Uncle Tom” where the word Tom is not a a slur. It is not, as you have presented, merely stating a racist belief. It is a slur used against a person. The adjective is just that–an adjective modifying the slur, like saying “stupid [n-word].” Multiple posters all agreed that it was hate speech, and you admit you aren’t familiar with the term. I think it makes more sense for you to go with what they say rather than your own opinion in that case. It is a racist slur used against a poster. It is not merely a term for a racist concept, like “Uncle Tom.” If not all racist slurs are hate speech, then what does count as hate speech? It makes it seem arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/66 "2018-10-16T05:37:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > To be clear, I was reacting to **Bricker** comparing the exchange to being called a “house n-word,” by which I assumed he meant THE n-word, not “negro.” That what I was referring to when I said the comparison didn’t work. There’s almost no circumstance where one poster refers to another poster as an n-word that wouldn’t immediately draw a warning at the bare minimum, and more likely an insta-ban. OK, that makes sense. I still think it’s a slur, irrespective of the severity of the slur. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/67 "2018-10-16T06:10:49Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > It was clear that the point that **Bricker** was a traitor to people of color, specifically Mexican people of color. The commentary was also sprinkled with phrases about lying down at the altar of whiteness. It was very evident that **Huey** was using “pocho” a racial slur. He was not describing someone who merely assimilated. He was describing **Bricker** in the vilest terms that **Huey** could imagine. And again, as pointed out, Bricker’s not even Mexican, so it’s like, “Oh, who cares, aren’t all Latinos the same?” But hey, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/68 "2018-10-16T06:11:25Z")
It’s definitely a slur - a reduntant slur, I think the “house” sense of “house-nigger” is already there in the derogatory usage of “pocho” - but a slur nonetheless, and should be modded as such. It would certainly meet the standard to get prosecuted as such in my country. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/69 "2018-10-16T11:01:14Z")
TIL some new hate speech. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/70 "2018-10-16T12:22:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s definitely a slur - a reduntant slur, I think the “house” sense of “house-nigger” is already there in the derogatory usage of “pocho” - but a slur nonetheless, and should be modded as such. It would certainly meet the standard to get prosecuted as such in my country. No, pocho seems more like calling a black person an oreo or an asian person a banana. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/71 "2018-10-16T12:44:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, pocho seems more like calling a black person an oreo or an asian person a banana. Oreo (or coconut, the local equivalent) and house-nigger are close enough in sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/72 "2018-10-16T13:02:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, pocho seems more like calling a black person an oreo or an asian person a banana. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Oreo (or coconut, the local equivalent) and house-nigger are close enough in sense to me. I mean, I appreciate that there _is_ a difference, but not a difference that matters to the fact that “House pocho” is redundant - _all_ pochos would be house-\ when used in that particular pejorative sense, I think (I’m given to understand there’s also a non-pejorative usage). All oreos are house-niggers or Uncle Toms, might be be the Black equivalent. But not all Toms would be oreos. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/73 "2018-10-16T13:17:29Z")
I don’t think so. An oreo is a black person who acts white. An Uncle Tom or House Negro is a black person who is on Team White. Just because a black person likes Dungeons & Dragons and can’t dance doesn’t mean he agrees with stop and frisk. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/74 "2018-10-16T13:34:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t think so. An oreo is a black person who acts white. An Uncle Tom or House Negro is a black person who is on Team White. Just because a black person likes Dungeons & Dragons and can’t dance doesn’t mean he agrees with stop and frisk. That’s a nice distinction, like I said I’m aware of the difference, but the kind of Black person who thinks that a fellow Black person playing D’nD is “acting white” is also the kind of Black person who doesn’t recognise such finer distinctions. “Acting White” _is_ “Being on Team White” to them - I’ve been called coconut often enough to know - for liking the music I like, speaking like I speak, marrying who I married and, yes, for playing D’nD. I dance like the Devil, though… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/75 "2018-10-16T13:43:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s definitely a slur - a reduntant slur, I think the “house” sense of “house-nigger” is already there in the derogatory usage of “pocho” - but a slur nonetheless, and should be modded as such. It would certainly meet the standard to get prosecuted as such in my country. Part of the “Houser” sense is there, but not all of it. Calling someone a “Pocho” is or can be simply a cultural statement. That is, you may be Mexican by heritage, but your Spanish sucks (for example). Calling someone a “House-Pocho” adds a political dimension to it. That is, you’re taking political stances contrary to the alleged interests of your fellow Mexican-Americans. And you don’t need to be a “Pocho” (culturally) to be a “House-Pocho”. You might speak perfect Spanish, eat tortillas with every meal, revere _La Virgin de Guadalupe_, visit _abuelita_ every weekend, but wear a MAGA hat, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/76 "2018-10-16T14:16:53Z")
I’ve never been comfortable with the entire concept of raza and such. Growing up in LA - I’m not latino - I’d here on a regular basis latino kids being questions on being raza. I’d guess that’s morphed into pocho now? Anyway, those who use it presume that there’s one way to be something and it’s impossible for someone to be other. Or that somehow someone pursuing interests outside of that are somehow betraying everyone else with whom they share a genetic or cultural or linguistic background. Which is, of course, bullshit. A person is entitled to pursue whatever interests and plans they want. If a person from Argentina wishes to get involved with Buffy and Skippy at the Regatta in the Hamptons than screw someone who wants to criticize them for it. Doing so it deeply focused on race instead of the individual. I tend to see it in people who are so ingrained in their points-of-view that they view everything through such instead of seeing the person in from of them. It’s hurtful to discussion and growth. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/77 "2018-10-16T15:25:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I thought there’d be a few more free speech-ish absolutists besides me. > > I thought there might be at least one person taking the view that based on my privileged position, the harm done by racist speech is too minimal to warrant sanction. > > I expected most people to adopt the view that it was wrong and modd-able, but I did not expect the unanimity that’s appeared thus far. I am a free speech absolutist (that’s probably overstating it a little, but I’m pretty close to that camp). But my views on that have everything to do with giving governments the power to censor, and much less to do with views about the impacts and solutions to bad speech. If you strip out the questions about government power, then I think decisions about speech restrictions get a lot harder to make. You still want private actors to facilitate free discourse, but there is also less downside to them trying, necessarily imperfectly, to restrict harmful speech. If I were defining a hate speech prohibition for a private message board–especially for one forum of that message board when the rest of the forums are subject to a “don’t be a jerk” rule, making a hate speech prohibition utterly redundant outside that forum–it would be a very narrow restriction. I’d be looking to eliminate speech that facilitates or encourages hateful actions (stuff like glorifying KKK violence or the kind of thing they did on the radio in Rwanda) or speech that is so vile and such a transgression of community standards that allowing such speech _even limited to a sub-forum_ has the effect of pushing away from the board certain groups of people based on their immutable characteristics. That’s a pretty tough test to meet, I think. I’m pretty sure the example in the OP wouldn’t meet it. But, for that matter, neither would a lot of the other examples offered in this thread of unambiguous hate speech. I think it is deeply racist to say that someone has ideological or political obligations as a result of their race or ethnic background. It is not racist at all to say that it is bad for people of color to use their racial identity to further (or obfuscate or benefit from) white supremacy. (And I am not at all agreeing that \*\*Bricker \*\*does this.) Those two separate ideas are quite easily conflated, and conversation on this subject is not at all helped by terminology that combines both ideas, which is essentially what phrases like “Uncle Tom” do. If what someone means is the latter, they should just say the latter. All of that is quite separate from whether it would be consistent to mod this particular example. I’m sure it would be. But I gather that is not the entirety of what you wanted to discuss in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/78 "2018-10-16T15:26:46Z")
What a Ruckus! Splunge! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/79 "2018-10-16T16:07:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never heard the term “pocho” before today. Google tells me it means “A Hispanic person who is not properly knowledgeable/respectful of their Hispanic heritage.” Generally, the terms covered by the hate speech rule are terms that are intended to be broadly insulting to all members of the described group. Chris Rock stand-up routines aside, the n-word is used to describe all black people indiscriminately. “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. **The OP’s comparison to “house n-word” doesn’t work because the n-word is such a powerful slur on its own, and one where there’s virtually no context in which it would be acceptable to use against another poster** , but comparing it to “house slave” is on-point, and not something I’ve moderated in the past. > > That being said, I’m trying to gauge the history and nuance of a pejorative I’ve never heard before, based entirely on its Wikipedia entry, so my position here is far from set in stone. I’m discussing the subject with the other mods, and am open to arguments to the contrary from anyone reading this thread, as well. Emphasis added. It appears that some ethnic slurs are bad enough to be hate speech, even if they are qualified so as to point to a specific subset of the group being slurred (house n_gger doesn’t refer to all black people but only a subset). Correct me if I am wrong on this. And "p_cho" doesn’t sink to that level. Thus “house p_cho" is not as bad as "house n_gger”. That having been said, what about the “coonery” remark? Is “c **n" bad enough on its own so that even specifying that Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell are engaging in "c** nery” rather than all black people is actionable? Does it matter that neither Rice nor Powell are Dopers? I know the reluctance to give a list of which ethnically based insults are beyond the fringe and which are deprecated but not outlawed, but if we can’t derive what the rule against hate speech means from first principles, I don’t see any other way to understand it except inductively. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/80 "2018-10-16T17:15:07Z")
I see that **Miller** has responded in the Pit thread. Not that it matters, but I agree. Thanks for your response. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=5)