# Contours of "hate speech" **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985 "2018-10-15T15:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/81 "2018-10-16T17:32:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Bricker, if you want a discussion of the nuances, start one. Er, isn’t that what he’s just done? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/82 "2018-10-16T18:10:28Z")
This is disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/83 "2018-10-16T18:10:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Er, isn’t that what he’s just done? The discussion can’t be complete without him detailing his feelings about what the mods should do. Unless I missed it, he has said nothing about that. It’s conspicuous by its absence. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/84 "2018-10-16T19:06:29Z")
To me it falls under “Insults we can use among each other, but which are offensive when used by someone not in the group so described.” So **Huey Freeman** (who I don’t know, but who I believe is African-American and not Latino) using it is not OK - but a Latino board member using it regarding another Latino board member would be. Similarly, I have no problem with Huey describing Rice/Powell as engaging in c\*\*\*ery, but it would be grossly inappropriate coming from me or another white person. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/85 "2018-10-16T19:23:49Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > To me it falls under “Insults we can use among each other, but which are offensive when used by someone not in the group so described.” So **Huey Freeman** (who I don’t know, but who I believe is African-American and not Latino) using it is not OK - but a Latino board member using it regarding another Latino board member would be. Similarly, I have no problem with Huey describing Rice/Powell as engaging in c\*\*\*ery, but it would be grossly inappropriate coming from me or another white person. I disagree. I am not going to countenance n bombs because they originate from a poster who is black. I’m not going to overlook “kike” from a poster who is Jewish, or “spic” from a poster who is Hispanic. Just no. I have no tolerance for racial slurs. Surely some are worse than others, because that’s context, but racial slurs do not get a pass because the speaker identifies as a certain race. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/86 "2018-10-16T19:24:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That having been said, what about the “coonery” remark? Best James Bond, ever, but completely unbelievable as a Russian Sub Commander. Oh, wait. Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/87 "2018-10-16T20:17:35Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > To me it falls under “Insults we can use among each other, but which are offensive when used by someone not in the group so described.” So **Huey Freeman** (who I don’t know, but who I believe is African-American and not Latino) using it is not OK - but a Latino board member using it regarding another Latino board member would be. Similarly, I have no problem with Huey describing Rice/Powell as engaging in c\*\*\*ery, but it would be grossly inappropriate coming from me or another white person. > [@Bone](#): > > I disagree. I am not going to countenance n bombs because they originate from a poster who is black. I’m not going to overlook “kike” from a poster who is Jewish, or “spic” from a poster who is Hispanic. Just no. I have no tolerance for racial slurs. Surely some are worse than others, because that’s context, but racial slurs do not get a pass because the speaker identifies as a certain race. Plus, how are the mods supposed to remember (or even know) who is what ethnicity? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/88 "2018-10-16T21:37:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Plus, how are the mods supposed to remember (or even know) who is what ethnicity? What if we all submit DNA tests? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/89 "2018-10-16T23:25:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > What if we all submit DNA tests? Do we get $1M for doing it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/90 "2018-10-17T00:19:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do we get $1M for doing it? 🙂 The President just said he has to administer the test personally. Line forms to your left. Sorry, I mean right. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/91 "2018-10-17T02:11:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never heard the term “pocho” before today. Google tells me it means “A Hispanic person who is not properly knowledgeable/respectful of their Hispanic heritage.” Generally, the terms covered by the hate speech rule are terms that are intended to be broadly insulting to all members of the described group. Chris Rock stand-up routines aside, the n-word is used to describe all black people indiscriminately. “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. The OP’s comparison to “house n-word” doesn’t work because the n-word is such a powerful slur on its own, and one where there’s virtually no context in which it would be acceptable to use against another poster, but comparing it to “house slave” is on-point, and not something I’ve moderated in the past. Personally, I disagree with you on this. Pocho appears to be a term based on a person’s ethnicity. A person who isn’t Hispanic can’t be called a Pocho just as a person who isn’t black can’t be called an Uncle Tom. The ethnicity is baked into the word. And I feel that any derogatory term that has this kind of ethnic element should not be allowed on this board. Certainly at least not allowed to be directed towards other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/92 "2018-10-17T03:43:33Z")
Pocho is insulting in most contexts but not anything like the slurs that are considered to be hate speech on the boards. It doesn’t even rise to the level of Uncle Tom. It isn’t an ethnic slur just because it only applies to a subset of Mexicans any more so than redneck is an ethnic slur because it only applies to a certain subset of Americans. But even if it were, an ethnic/racial/sexist/ableist slur doesn’t automatically qualify as ‘hate speech’ by most definitions of the term. The line between them can be fine. As it applies to these boards, it’s ultimately just a matter of where the mods want to draw the line. I generally agree with the places Miller chooses to draw it in the Pit. I can think of maybe 5 or 6 terms that I have seen someone warned or banned for using in the Pit and IMO pocho shouldn’t be added to that list. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/93 "2018-10-17T10:18:15Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Pocho is insulting in most contexts but not anything like the slurs that are considered to be hate speech on the boards. It doesn’t even rise to the level of Uncle Tom. It isn’t an ethnic slur just because it only applies to a subset of Mexicans any more so than redneck is an ethnic slur because it only applies to a certain subset of Americans. I would argue that redneck is only not a slur because it is a form of self identification. We call ourselves rednecks, proudly. It’s only vaguely derogatory. Pocho is a derogatory term for Mexicans who have left Mexico and are no longer “sufficiently Mexican.” It is an inherently racist concept, similar to “coonery” which was just moderated in the Pit, albeit with a light touch. As for the argument that it isn’t hate speech: I can agree, but only if we limit hate speech to where even slurs in general don’t count. It would the “hate speech is supporting violence or discrimination against minorities” definition. Thing is, that clearly isn’t the one used here. And, finally, I’m not entirely comfortable having the mods decide if they are unfamiliar with the word and its usage. Even if you think they are right about this word, it leads to potential problems in the future with other words. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/94 "2018-10-17T11:49:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I would argue that redneck is only not a slur because it is a form of self identification. We call ourselves rednecks, proudly. It’s only vaguely derogatory. > > Pocho is a derogatory term for Mexicans who have left Mexico and are no longer “sufficiently Mexican.” It is an inherently racist concept, similar to “coonery” which was just moderated in the Pit, albeit with a light touch. It’s Wikipedia, so take with a grain of salt, but the article on [pocho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocho) seems to indicate some Mexican-Americans embrace the term. Not saying that justifies usage here, but it does mean it’s not as distinct in usage from redneck as all that. > [@](#): > > And, finally, I’m not entirely comfortable having the mods decide if they are unfamiliar with the word and its usage. Even if you think they are right about this word, it leads to potential problems in the future with other words. I think, if they are unfamiliar, they should use acceptable outside sources to back up claims of a word being derogatory. I don’t think non-derogatory usages are an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card, though. Not if there’s enough evidence to show that it generally _is_ a pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/95 "2018-10-17T14:50:28Z")
The item at hand is “House-Pocho”, not just “Pocho”. Much of how things are moderated here depends on the context, and in the context we are discussing, I would consider the therm “House-Pocho” to be an ethnic slur. For others here, YMMV, and it’s **Miller’s** call. He’s a good mod, so I’m OK with whatever he decides. It’s not the end of the world if he decides differently from me. I just think we’re debating the wrong thing if we’re debating the term “Pocho” without the “House-” part. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/96 "2018-10-17T15:48:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. This strikes me as a significant distinction, enough that my initial instinct is to not moderate the term. Do you see a distinction between Hispanics using the term, compared to non-Hispanics using it to disparage Hispanics? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/97 "2018-10-17T16:59:13Z")
In some cases pocho is almost a sort of sympathetic term for the target and more an insult against their parents/teachers/society for not teaching them about their heritage. In other cases it is a direct insult for not valuing or demonstrating their heritage. But in no case is it an insult for having that heritage. Miller interpreted the term correctly in pretty short order: " “Pocho,” on the other hand, appears to have been coined by Hispanic people, to describe a distinct subset of other Hispanic people for a specific set of attitudes and/or politics. " I used redneck as loose parallel because even though it can only apply to an American it isn’t based on the fact that they are American but rather on a set of attitudes and politics. Yankee is a similar term in that way. Within the US it can be used as slur against the attitudes and politics of a subset of primarily East Coasters, but it can also be used by someone who is proud of being a Yankee to describe themselves. If someone from Mexico posted in a Pit thread to call a liberal post-grad student in Berkeley a redneck or a pig farmer in Louisiana a yankee, even if they intended it as a slur against them simply for being American it still wouldn’t be one. John Mace is correct that adding “house-” to it evokes thoughts of our own racist slur that is used to insult a very loosely parallel subset of people in our culture: “house-N-word” but that is because the N word by itself is a term of hate speech that is used in all kinds of contexts that are truly racial slurs and have nothing to do with attitudes or politics. If you consider the words that we do classify as hate speech here; truly hurtful bigoted damaging words, adding words like ‘pocho’ or ‘yankee’ to them is ridiculous and it diminishes the reasons we do consider some words to be hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/98 "2018-10-17T18:16:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The item at hand is “House-Pocho”, not just “Pocho”. Much of how things are moderated here depends on the context, and in the context we are discussing, I would consider the therm “House-Pocho” to be an ethnic slur. For others here, YMMV, and it’s **Miller’s** call. He’s a good mod, so I’m OK with whatever he decides. It’s not the end of the world if he decides differently from me. I just think we’re debating the wrong thing if we’re debating the term “Pocho” without the “House-” part. I’ll admit I was unfamiliar with the term before encountering it in this thread. In fact, I initially assumed it was a typo and the user had meant to write poncho. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/99 "2018-10-17T19:04:42Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I used redneck as loose parallel because even though it can only apply to an American 😕 Unlike “Yankee,” the word redneck is commonly used in rural Canada for decades now to refer to Canadians as well, with pretty much the exact same connentations as the word carries south of the border. I’ve heard a Brit using it too, so I believe that it’s an not an exclusively American term. You can probably blame/thank Jeff Foxworthy for that. FWIW, I thought pocho was a misspelling on poncho too. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985/100 "2018-10-17T19:17:08Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > 😕 Unlike “Yankee,” the word redneck is commonly used in rural Canada for decades now to refer to Canadians as well, with pretty much the exact same connentations as the word carries south of the border. I’ve heard a Brit using it too, so I believe that it’s an not an exclusively American term. You can probably blame/thank Jeff Foxworthy for that. Certainly a subset of Canadians or Germans or Chinese or anyone else in any culture may have attitudes or politics similar to those who Americans first called rednecks. They might have a similar or identical slur about them in their language or borrow ours. We might find a post on a message board in Europe calling another poster in rural Slovakia a redneck for whatever attitudes or politics a subset of rural Slovakians might have if the term and its meaning in English are familiar to them. It still wouldn’t be an anti-Slovakian slur it would be an anti-rural-Slovokian-politics-and-attitudes slur. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contours-of-hate-speech/822985.md?page=6)