# Contractor Dopers: Fisher proposal to build border wall: Is this \*technically\* feasible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 9, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261 "2019-04-09T03:54:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/21 "2019-04-09T20:43:00Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Because there is a helluva lot of privately owned land that borders Mexico. Yes, but obviously that would be acquired to make it Federal land. I’m responding to your comment: Aha! Federal land! On Federal land, the Almighty Feds may do whatever they damn well please." You went on at length about EIS, surveys, liability, etc., apparently to explain the extreme burdens of building on non-Federal land. But I think it seems pretty clear that any new walls would be built on Federal land, either currently owned or to be acquired. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/22 "2019-04-09T21:24:33Z")
Here is a fairly comprehensive explanation from a structural forensicist, an actual civil engineer who specializes in building walls, and why simply hiring a contractor won’t work and neither will Trump’s wall. NB: This isn’t a link to the Facebook post she made, but the article contains all of her post and is probably more easily accessible at this point. > **[An actual engineer explains why the wall is 'a disaster of numerous types...](https://www.upworthy.com/an-actual-engineer-explains-why-the-wall-is-a-disaster-of-numerous-types-waiting-to-happen)** > > Immigration arguments aside, what about the physical logistics of building Trump's wall along the border? Many pundits, politicians, and ordinary people have offered their opinions on whether or not Trump's proposed border wall should be built. Most... ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/23 "2019-04-09T21:39:54Z")
Just wait until the contractor gets to the Tohono O’odham reservation in Arizona and its 60+ mile long border with Mexico, with members of the nation on both sides of the border. Maybe the Federal government will eventually wrestle a border closing in that land, but how hard will a private contractor fight against [tribal sovereignty](https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/tohono-oodham-nation-arizona-tribe/582487001/)? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/24 "2019-04-09T22:04:48Z")
I can’t comment on the feasibility, but I have experience with huge construction projects from my former job in environmental consulting. From what I learned from the contractors, the game is to massively underbid the project, then make all the money on change orders. I was on that particular project to support all the change orders around environmental contamination that was found during excavation. No matter how well a contract is written, a contractor can find items worthy of change orders. A poorly-written change order, say one written quickly under political pressure to make the job look fast and easy, will have innumerable opportunities to pad the original price with change orders. These aren’t 10-50% overruns we’re talking about; it’s 5X, 10X, or more. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/25 "2019-04-09T22:08:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, but obviously that would be acquired to make it Federal land. > > I’m responding to your comment: Aha! Federal land! On Federal land, the Almighty Feds may do whatever they damn well please." You went on at length about EIS, surveys, liability, etc., apparently to explain the extreme burdens of building on non-Federal land. But I think it seems pretty clear that any new walls would be built on Federal land, either currently owned or to be acquired. Surveys and title search would be necessary to acquire the land for the Feds. Annnnnnnd…temporary easements across private land would be necessary to allow the construction equipment access to where the wall is to be built! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/26 "2019-04-09T22:10:22Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I can’t comment on the feasibility, but I have experience with huge construction projects from my former job in environmental consulting. From what I learned from the contractors, the game is to massively underbid the project, then make all the money on change orders. I was on that particular project to support all the change orders around environmental contamination that was found during excavation. > > No matter how well a contract is written, a contractor can find items worthy of change orders. A poorly-written change order, say one written quickly under political pressure to make the job look fast and easy, will have innumerable opportunities to pad the original price with change orders. These aren’t 10-50% overruns we’re talking about; it’s 5X, 10X, or more. What he said. Absolutely!!! In fact, I have actually seen corrections to errors made by the contractors sent through as CHANGE ORDERS and billed as such! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/27 "2019-04-09T22:14:45Z")
I somehow read this as Fisher-Price building the wall. which amused me to no end. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/28 "2019-04-10T02:11:24Z")
> [@adhemar](#): > > I somehow read this as Fisher-Price building the wall. which amused me to no end. Me too. Disappointed. Anyway, about “change orders” - that was a major point against the wall from the engineer in the link \*\*Morgyn \*\*posted. [Here is is again.](https://www.upworthy.com/an-actual-engineer-explains-why-the-wall-is-a-disaster-of-numerous-types-waiting-to-happen) > [@Amy Patrick](#): > > It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign… It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime. > > I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just _obliterated_. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— **a large quotient of us are immigrants** , and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me. (Bolding mine. It made me chortle.) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/29 "2019-04-10T11:48:34Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > I’m pretty sure environmental impact would be waived for such a project, considering who wants it done. Or maybe I’m just cynical… 😉 Environmental laws have [already been waived](https://www.npr.org/2019/02/12/693777466/government-can-waive-environmental-laws-to-build-border-wall-prototypes-court-ru) to fast track construction of Trump’s border wall prototypes and replace existing fencing. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the waivers. Similar waivers were given five times for earlier border construction in Texas. The court dismissed the challenge to the environmental waivers and the [Supreme Court allowed that dismissal to stand](https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105401668). So the precedent is already in place and though there may be environmental challenges I would not assume they would bog down construction if The Wall goes forward writ large. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/30 "2019-04-10T13:08:14Z")
And just yesterday, the Pentagon awarded nearly $1 billion in contracts to build sections of a border wall. The estimated completion date is October 1, 2020. Clearly it doesn’t take years to start moving out on these sorts of projects. > **[Contracts for April 9, 2019](https://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract/Article/1809986/)** > > ARMY SLSCO Ltd., Galveston, Texas, was awarded a $789,000,000 firm-fixed-price contract for border replacement wall construction. Nine bids were solicited with six bids received. Work will be ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/31 "2019-04-10T13:39:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And just yesterday, the Pentagon awarded nearly $1 billion in contracts to build sections of a border wall. The estimated completion date is October 1, 2020. Clearly it doesn’t take years to start moving out on these sorts of projects. > > [\> U.S. Department of Defense \> Contract](https://dod.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1809986/) Do not ever believe for one second outrageous claims like this. Keep in mind, this from someone who said Mexico was going to pay for it. Smoke and mirrors are more solid than this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/32 "2019-04-10T14:09:06Z")
My vote is with **ftg**. If I had the wherewithal, I’d LOVELOVELOVE to travel to the border counties where the wall construction will take place. I’d park my fat butt in the various Assessor offices and research all the land along the US-Mexico border. I’ll grant you this: the stuff of this contract is most likely on Federal land. But to put it up without the hydrological and geological factors researched and addressed, the US taxpayers are financing junk. The folks wanting access to the United States can wait until it falls down, and then WALK over the debris. The busted down wall will forever be known as “Trump’s Folly.” ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/33 "2019-04-10T15:11:41Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Do not ever believe for one second outrageous claims like this. Keep in mind, this from someone who said Mexico was going to pay for it. > > Smoke and mirrors are more solid than this stuff. The Army Corps of Engineers said Mexico would pay for the wall? If this is an outrageous claim, let’s make a bet. I’d suggest $100, but feel free to suggest another amount. Here’s my proposed terms: Barring a court injunction on the legality of the military building the wall, I believe construction on these particular parts of the wall will be substantially complete by next October. (I understand we are talking about less than a hundred miles of fencing here.) Do we have a bet? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/34 "2019-04-10T15:48:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And just yesterday, the Pentagon awarded nearly $1 billion in contracts to build sections of a border wall. The estimated completion date is October 1, 2020. Clearly it doesn’t take years to start moving out on these sorts of projects. > > [\> U.S. Department of Defense \> Contract](https://dod.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1809986/) That page specifically says, “border replacement wall construction”. Replacing existing border walls or fencing is a lot different than building entirely new walls or fencing. Plus this wouldn’t change the amount of the border that is walled off. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/35 "2019-04-10T16:04:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That page specifically says, “border replacement wall construction”. Replacing existing border walls or fencing is a lot different than building entirely new walls or fencing. Plus this wouldn’t change the amount of the border that is walled off. I have a feeling you aren’t going to take the $100 bet I offered to **ftg**. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/36 "2019-04-10T17:14:51Z")
TRUMP is the one who said Mexico would pay for the wall. Mexico said, “No.” I gotta read all these articles. Saying the military will build a wall and saying the Army Corps of Engineers will build the wall are two DIFFERENT things. The US Army does indeed have Engineers. Construction engineers build things. Combat engineers blow thing up. The Army Corps of Engineers is NOT a military entity. They get involved with water stuff. Rivers, levies, flood control channels… I’m gonna Google the origins of the Army Corps of Engineers. (Trivia time! Anybody know why the Engineers are symbolized by castles?) ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/37 "2019-04-10T17:46:46Z")
The funding for this section of construction came from $1 billion in excess pay and allowances from the Army. It was transferred to a DoD counterdrug account over the objections of Congress, and the Secretary of Defense signed off on these specific projects. He then directed the Department of the Army to carry them out, and the Secretary of the Army has directed the ACOE to carry out the project, just as the ACOE carries out the vast majority of major construction projects for the Army. I hope that clears things up that the situation for you. > **[Pentagon awards first border wall contracts using diverted funds](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-wall-defense-department-awards-first-border-wall-contracts-using-diverted-funds/)** > > The funding for the contract would come from $1 billion in reprogrammed counter-narcotics money ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/38 "2019-04-10T18:18:20Z")
_wild hysterical laughing snorting knee-slapping guffawing_ Pardon me. “Excess pay and allowances from the Army” You need to get down on your knees and pray to whatever Diety you believe in for forgiveness for even repeating such a lie. He who shall not be named even went to the war zone and lied about the size of the raise that US military personnel were to receive. “Excess pay and allowances…” If there is a single DIME in any such account, it should be handed over to the men and women in uniform! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/39 "2019-04-10T18:29:25Z")
Paying for it through change orders? This is making me nostalgic for working for a living. I must be high. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261/40 "2019-04-10T19:26:45Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > _wild hysterical laughing snorting knee-slapping guffawing_ > > Pardon me. > > “Excess pay and allowances from the Army” > > You need to get down on your knees and pray to whatever Diety you believe in for forgiveness for even repeating such a lie. > > He who shall not be named even went to the war zone and lied about the size of the raise that US military personnel were to receive. > > “Excess pay and allowances…” > > If there is a single DIME in any such account, it should be handed over to the men and women in uniform! > ~VOW The Army expected to increase its Active Component endstrength by close to 10,000 soldiers this year, and it found out it couldn’t recruit them. Therefore, the money that was budgeted to pay for an endstrength of ~485,000 is actually only paying for an endstrength closer to 475,000. Add to that the fact that fewer soldiers are signing up for the blended retirement system – in which troops are encouraged to contribute to a 401k-like plan, with matching contributions from the Government – and there was a massive budget fuck-up this year to the tune of $1 billion. The military services are not free to simply hand out cash incentives to troops if they have some extra lying around. Pay raises are determined by a formula set in law, or by congressional action; and bonuses for re-enlistment and similar things are capped at amounts in law for any particular year. You seem to have awfully strident opinions on matters you are unfamiliar with. I’m having second thoughts about giving you the benefit of the doubt on your proclaimed expertise in road construction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractor-dopers-fisher-proposal-to-build-border-wall-is-this-technically-feasible/832261.md?page=3)