# Contractors are in charge of interrogation in Iraq?!?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847 "2004-04-30T13:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/1 "2004-04-30T13:37:07Z")
In [this](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html) stroy from the Guardian, we are told that: > [@](#): > > Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation. > > The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees. Let’s for a moment ignore the appalling nature of these crimes. I highly doubt that anyone on this board will suggest that such treatment is in line with our “mission” in Iraq. Comments about the treatment can be directed to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253807&highlight=iraq+contractors) thread in the Pit. I am more concerned about this line in the article: > [@](#): > > Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case. > > “We know that CACI and Titan corporations have provided interrogators and that they have in fact conducted interrogations on behalf of the US and have interacted the military police guards at the prison,” he said. > > “I think it creates a laissez faire environment that is completely inappropriate. If these individuals engaged in crimes against an Iraq national - who has jurisdiction over such a crime?” > > “It’s insanity,” said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors’ free-ranging role. “These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?” Is this, finally, the end to grand experiment in the privatization of war that has been our misadventure in Iraq? Can anyone here continue to justify allowing individual who are under no recognizable legal jurisdiction perform military related tasks? I can see contracting out food service, janitorial services, and technology infrastructure services… but interrogation? WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/2 "2004-04-30T13:42:18Z")
Creepy… but provinding interrogators has long been a US tradition. Not sure if the ones sent to Latin America in the 70’s were CIA or freelancers… probably CIA. ``` I bet all of them are former CIA, FBI or Military anyway... so their professionalism might not be questionable... but their legitimacy sure is. ``` ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/3 "2004-04-30T13:53:17Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Creepy… but provinding interrogators has long been a US tradition. Not sure if the ones sent to Latin America in the 70’s were CIA or freelancers… probably CIA. > > ``` > I bet all of them are former CIA, FBI or Military anyway... so their professionalism might not be questionable... but their legitimacy sure is. > > ``` Undoubtedly true. And the rules in covert ops have always been a bit murky. And given our lovely new Ambassador to Iraq, our experiences with such in Central America may have more bearing than we would like. However, this is a case where we are acting as the government of the nation of Iraq. Not only are we responsible for the actions of every soldier and civilian representative of the DoD, we are also responsible for the well-being of every single Iraqi citizen. So, who should have jurisdiction? To my mind, the contractors involved should be placed in front of an Iraqi court, and placed in the general population of the Abu Ghraib if found guilty through a fair and impartial trial. It seems the only thing just and fair. For the soldiers who were following orders, I am slightly torn. They deserve some consideration of the fact that they are expected to obey orders from their superiors and that there are legal ramifications to their refusal to do so. However, they also have the capacity to refuse an illegal order, and forcing prisoners to simulate fallatio on each other should pretty clearly be illegal to anyone. So I guess I would be OK with them being subject to military justice, but they had better be staying at Hotel Leavenworth for a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/4 "2004-04-30T13:56:39Z")
> [@CTB](#): > > For the soldiers who were following orders, I am slightly torn. They deserve some consideration of the fact that they are expected to obey orders from their superiors and that there are legal ramifications to their refusal to do so. However, they also have the capacity to refuse an illegal order, and forcing prisoners to simulate fallatio on each other should pretty clearly be illegal to anyone. So I guess I would be OK with them being subject to military justice, but they had better be staying at Hotel Leavenworth for a long, long time. They didn’t seem under duress when they were beaming back at the camera giving the thumbs up sign while beside them a human being was being humiliated. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/5 "2004-04-30T13:58:13Z")
I guess the guy with a bag over his head and hooked up to electrical wires is experiencing a “cover charge”. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/6 "2004-04-30T14:02:12Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > They didn’t seem under duress when they were beaming back at the camera giving the thumbs up sign while beside them a human being was being humiliated. Yes. And I just saw the [pictures](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/30/content_327712.htm). No duress there. I make absolutely no plea for mercy on these miserable fucks. I just wonder about the practical question of jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/7 "2004-04-30T14:11:22Z")
It just gets worse the more you [see](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=outrage-at-american-torture-of-iraqi-prisoners-name_page.html) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/8 "2004-04-30T14:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein. > > One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him. > [@](#): > > Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: “One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him.” > > She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens. The mercs are pretty much immune to consequences here. They’re not subject to the military justice system (I’ve said before that they should be), they’re not subject to American criminal courts because they’re not in America, and while they’re theoretically subject to Iraqi law, there’s no Iraqi court system to charge or try them. Seems like we should detain such people until there’s a legitimate Iraqi authority to hand them over to. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/9 "2004-04-30T14:21:38Z")
I understood from older articles that these mercs and contractors are subject to the laws of the states they were contracted in… I don’t think they will be benefitted from legal limbo… well unless they go to GITMO. As for the soldiers… it was only a matter of time before this started. They are young and not particularly bright men. Add to that the notion of the US being superior and that Iraq is the enemy… that americans are morally, militarily and religiously superior to Iraqis and it was bound to happen. IMHO. I say punish their superiors for letting 'em loose like that. Punishing young punks ONLY sounds like scapegoating. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/10 "2004-04-30T14:27:19Z")
…so I’ve put them [two clicks away](http://www.livejournal.com/users/slackerwink/calendar): once you’ve clicked this link, you’ll have to click on the link for April 29 on this person’s LJ calendar. Not clear what her source is, but the pix we haven’t seen elsewhere look as genuine as the ones we have. Yeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/11 "2004-04-30T14:31:01Z")
I just checked the front pages of the American papers (The Times and The Post). This story did not make the front page! It just keeps getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/12 "2004-04-30T14:41:17Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I understood from older articles that these mercs and contractors are subject to the laws of the states they were contracted in… I don’t think they will be benefitted from legal limbo… well unless they go to GITMO. Not sure I follow your meaning here. So you are suggesting that they are subject to Iraqi courts (if and when they exist)? > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > As for the soldiers… it was only a matter of time before this started. They are young and not particularly bright men. You are really hurting your argument with statements like that. The men and women in the army are no smarter/stupider than the men and women in any other line of work. They are young however, and you are playing with fire whenever you send immature boys and girls to have power over life and death of another. The ease of moulding their minds to a dangerous mindset I believe is the real reason we send our children off to die instead of ourselves. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Add to that the notion of the US being superior and that Iraq is the enemy… that americans are morally, militarily and religiously superior to Iraqis and it was bound to happen. IMHO. > > I say punish their superiors for letting 'em loose like that. Punishing young punks ONLY sounds like scapegoating. Yes. All the way up the line. All the way up to those who embarked on this adventure with no planning for the aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/13 "2004-04-30T17:57:04Z")
> [@CTB](#): > > The ease of moulding their minds to a dangerous mindset I believe is the real reason we send our children off to die instead of ourselves. reminds me of :- “If any question why we died, tell them, because our fathers lied” Rudyard Kipling (perhaps the bitterest lines ever written, his only son fell in WWI) OK, more MPSISMS than GD… sorry ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/14 "2004-04-30T18:13:50Z")
I guess I should have given the thread I started last night a better name. > **[Contractors from hell](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253798)** > > Earlier there was a thread questioning the morality and possible difficulties of having mercenaries as a major force in Iraq and other conflicts. It looks like things are even worse than we had guessed. From that other thread: Apparently they... ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/15 "2004-04-30T18:33:45Z")
> [@CTB](#): > > Can anyone here continue to justify allowing individual who are under no recognizable legal jurisdiction perform military related tasks? \ “The Iraqi people are free of the dictator Saddam Hussein.” \ Find television cameras and repeat without deviation as long as is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/16 "2004-04-30T18:44:07Z")
But our soldiers are HEROES! All of them! Something like this CAN’T happen in America! The saddest part of this whole thing - and the acts themselves are saddening beyond thought - is the lack of coverage in the media. I mean, what the hell are they there for? It is outrageous that something like this can happen and get no media play, and is relegated to those anti-war non-patriotic whackos who can’t be trusted. Close your eyes, America, and it will go away. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/17 "2004-04-30T19:09:34Z")
I believe what should be done about all of this is obvious: Because those photos reduce morale whoever took them should be fired. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/18 "2004-04-30T19:34:34Z")
> [@flight](#): > > I guess I should have given the thread I started last night a better name. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253798](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253798) Sorry **flight** , I did a search for the name of the prison to see if there was a previous thread, so I guess I missed your thread :smack: . You had a better OP, too. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/19 "2004-04-30T19:50:09Z")
This is **not** playing well with moderates in Baghdad: > [@](#): > > All anyone can talk about today are those pictures… those terrible pictures. There is so much rage and frustration. I know the dozens of emails I’m going to get claiming that this is an ‘isolated incident’ and that they are ‘ashamed of the people who did this’ but does it matter? What about those people in Abu Ghraib? What about their families and the lives that have been forever damaged by the experience in Abu Ghraib? I know the messages that I’m going to get- the ones that say, “But this happened under Saddam…” Like somehow, that makes what happens now OK… like whatever was suffered in the past should make any mass graves, detentions and torture only minor inconveniences now. [here](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108335179421604212) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847/20 "2004-04-30T19:51:36Z")
> [@CTB](#): > > Not sure I follow your meaning here. So you are suggesting that they are subject to Iraqi courts (if and when they exist)? > > You are really hurting your argument with statements like that. The men and women in the army are no smarter/stupider than the men and women in any other line of work. They are young however, and you are playing with fire whenever you send immature boys and girls to have power over life and death of another. ``` I remember reading that security contractors would be subject to Illinois law if they were contracted there... or Virginia law... etc.. I didn't understand the logic of it. I suppose the US states have more autonomy so the contracted have to follow one states law. Now don't know about "mercs". Remember that the USA doesn't allow for its soldiers to be judged by any other court than their own. I know its not nice saying US soldiers aren't the brightest people... but the common grunt which obviously are some of those in the photos aren't the smartest people. Americans USUALLY seek higher paying jobs if they can... Pat Tillman excepted. The US military are much more demanding than they used to be... but it still attracts SOME limited kinds of people, as would any military. Even if they aren't stupid... they are still 19-20 years old with guns and power. I considered myself stupid at 20 years of age... much more so than today. I just avoid doing the same stupid things of before... I manage new and creative stupids. Like I said before... this was bound to happen. I just didn't think "abuse" would be this graphic and stupid. Maybe soldiers in Iraq are feeling a bit too free and lacking in supervision ? ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contractors-are-in-charge-of-interrogation-in-iraq/242847.md?page=2)