# Contradictions in Genesis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629 "2016-01-30T00:54:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Al-Khemia\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9e8a1a/32.png) [@The\_Al-Khemia\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Al-Khemia_King)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/81 "2016-02-01T07:51:02Z")
Genesis is an esoteric study mouthed through exoteric means. “In the Beginning…” is meant to designate not a moment in time but a moment outside of time, and in fact references a reality self-generated by the expression of consciousness. God and man both transcend time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/82 "2016-02-01T08:23:45Z")
OK, whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/83 "2016-02-01T15:09:02Z")
> [@The\_Al-Khemia\_King](#): > > Genesis is an esoteric study mouthed through exoteric means. > > “In the Beginning…” is meant to designate not a moment in time but a moment outside of time, and in fact references a reality self-generated by the expression of consciousness. > > God and man both transcend time. Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/84 "2016-02-01T15:34:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You do realize Jesus literally says “I have come not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it”? > > Also: > \>unironically using the phrase “Bronze Age myths” According to me that is a corruption that was added lately. In the unedited gnostic texts he’s pretty damn clear that the OT is crap and the priests (or pharisees) are full of shit. Jesus was about enlightenment/self-realization, not about religion or myths. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/85 "2016-02-01T15:37:40Z")
> [@The\_Al-Khemia\_King](#): > > Genesis is an esoteric study mouthed through exoteric means. > > “In the Beginning…” is meant to designate not a moment in time but a moment outside of time, and in fact references a reality self-generated by the expression of consciousness. > > God and man both transcend time. I would qualify that and say that SOME parts are esoteric and about self-realization/enlightenment, but that there’s a LOT of corruption to the text. Other than that I agree, but don’t think you will get much traction here where people are only familiar with the Mythic aspect and know nothing about non-duality or real spirituality. In my opinion 99.9% of so called “Christians” in the US don’t have a clue what Jesus was all about and are stuck in a weird literal interpretation that the real Jesus would probably call satanic. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/86 "2016-02-01T16:25:56Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > According to me that is a corruption that was added lately. In the unedited gnostic texts he’s pretty damn clear that the OT is crap and the priests (or pharisees) are full of shit. > > Jesus was about enlightenment/self-realization, not about religion or myths. Nonsense. “Unedited Gnostic texts”? The Gnosticizing of the gospel came much later than the original texts. To claim that Jesus thought the OT was “crap” is nonsense. He was a religious Jew. He saw his message as a fulfillment of scripture, not a discarding of it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/87 "2016-02-01T16:37:52Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Nonsense. “Unedited Gnostic texts”? The Gnosticizing of the gospel came much later than the original texts. To claim that Jesus thought the OT was “crap” is nonsense. He was a religious Jew. He saw his message as a fulfillment of scripture, not a discarding of it. From the unedited Gospel of Thomas, the main Gnostic document: > [@](#): > > Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. > > When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.” > [@](#): > > Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.” > [@](#): > > His disciples said to him, “Who are you to say these things to us?” > > "You don’t understand who I am from what I say to you. > > Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree.” > [@](#): > > Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. > > And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other. > > Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil. > > An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear." The teaching of Jesus was a standard non-dual set of instructions and injunctions on how to transcend the egoic sense of self and achieve enlightenment and self-realization. Same as Plato and Buddha. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/88 "2016-02-01T17:19:22Z")
Yes, except it’s just like, your opinion man, that the Gospel of Thomas records what Jesus _really_ meant, and all that other Gospels were faked up. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/89 "2016-02-01T17:43:14Z")
Besides, those four excerpts don’t give evidence to your point. They all have parallels or near-parallels in the canonical gospels. Jesus did not have much use for the scribes and Pharisees, which is well attested to in the canonical gospels. But that’s a far cry from dismissing the Hebrew scriptures (OT). On the contrary, the reason he was so dismissive of the Pharisees is because they had abandoned the meaning of the scriptures and substituted fervent legalism. According to Luke, Jesus began his ministry by going to the synagogue and quoting Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he follows it up by saying “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Doesn’t sound like someone who thought the OT was crap. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/90 "2016-02-01T17:52:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, except it’s just like, your opinion man, that the Gospel of Thomas records what Jesus _really_ meant, and all that other Gospels were faked up. I am perfectly aware that it is an opinion (or alternative interpretation), but thanks for point that out in an unconstructive way. :dubious: The benefit of that interpretation, however, is that it makes sense and can sort of be “known” if you follow the injections. I suspect that most Mystics and Contemplative Christians would pretty much agree, but I recognize that most Christians are stuck in their mythical/magical beliefs. > [@Skammer](#): > > Besides, those four excerpts don’t give evidence to your point. They all have parallels or near-parallels in the canonical gospels. Jesus did not have much use for the scribes and Pharisees, which is well attested to in the canonical gospels. But that’s a far cry from dismissing the Hebrew scriptures (OT). On the contrary, the reason he was so dismissive of the Pharisees is because they had abandoned the meaning of the scriptures and substituted fervent legalism. > > According to Luke, Jesus began his ministry by going to the synagogue and quoting Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he follows it up by saying “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Doesn’t sound like someone who thought the OT was crap. I don’t think you understand the meaning of the quotes I posted, but as the man said, let those who have ears hear. You’re entitled to your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/91 "2016-02-01T18:11:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think you understand the meaning of the quotes I posted, but as the man said, let those who have ears hear. You’re entitled to your opinion. Spoken like a true Gnostic. Will you please share your received wisdom and enlighten us as to the meaning of those quotes? And maybe explain why they mean something different in the Gospel of Thomas than they do in the New Testament, if that’s your understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/92 "2016-02-03T02:44:41Z")
> [@lpixler](#): > > How is the distinction between “ritual law” and “moral law” made, exactly? Couldn’t one argue that ritual law was intended to be moral law? (Is this what Judaism believes?) Pretty much, yeah. Orthodox Jews believe that all the commandments are literally ordained by God for the spiritual benefit of humanity; IOW, all of the commandments direct us towards moral behavior, even the ones that have no obvious connection to morals or ethics. In this view, although it can be an enlightening mental exercise to consider _why_ God might have issued a specific commandment, such philosophizing can never legitimately lead to the conclusion that there are some commandments we don’t need to obey. Liberal Jews don’t believe in the literal divine origin of the commandments, and believe that it is acceptable to use our powers of reasoning to determine which ones we should keep, which need to be amended, and which discarded entirely. But that decision is made on a case-by-case basis; I’m not aware of any Jewish theologian who would consider it useful or appropriate to divide up the commandments into “ritual” and “moral” categories, since many of them could be plausibly argued either way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/93 "2016-02-03T20:40:04Z")
> [@lpixler](#): > > This is very helpful. I, too, see it as an early attempt to explain the world to an audience not ready for science. But what about Christian fundamentalists? What about those who read the Bible literally? I was under the impression that these people were a large Christian population. Is that not true? While the population would not be ready for the details of cosmology, it would not have been hard to put the creation far back in the future, and get the order of the origins of the Sun, Earth, Moon and animals correct. I believe that Hindu creation myths have it happening a long time ago, so it is not like this is a hard concept. Back in Usenet days I wrote a version of Genesis 1 with everything happening in the right order and no more complex than the current version. Not as good artistically though - if you think the verses sound good in English, try them in Hebrew. They are beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/94 "2016-02-05T02:53:04Z")
> [@lpixler](#): > > This is fascinating. Can you direct me to a source that explains how the rib is a euphemism for the baculum? I am very interested in this. Also, would this mean that this theory comes from those who take the Bible literally or symbolically? Is this intended as an actual account of how man lacks a baculum, or a symbolic account? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m having a little trouble buying this one, myself. It just sounds to me that on the “Plausible Theory\<—\>Pulled It Out Of My Ass” scale, it leans slightly to the right. So you’re saying god pulled it out of the ass? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/95 "2016-02-05T16:27:30Z")
> [@lpixler](#): > > This is fascinating. Can you direct me to a source that explains how the rib is a euphemism for the baculum? I am very interested in this. Also, would this mean that this theory comes from those who take the Bible literally or symbolically? Is this intended as an actual account of how man lacks a baculum, or a symbolic account? What I believe to be the ‘original’ article can be purchased [**here**](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajmg.1387/abstract). ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/96 "2016-02-05T18:46:39Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Spoken like a true Gnostic. Will you please share your received wisdom and enlighten us as to the meaning of those quotes? And maybe explain why they mean something different in the Gospel of Thomas than they do in the New Testament, if that’s your understanding. I actually started typing out an analysis of the questions but then the Holy Spirit talked to me and said “Why are you wasting your time on this one, he is not interested in changing his mind. Didn’t Jesus mention something about swines and pearls?” and I figured I should probably listen to that… But yeah, Jesus was an enlightenment teacher like every buddha or real saint before and after him. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t grokk that yet. If you want to find out for yourself, follow the injunctions (meditate or whatnot). It’s supposed to be something you DO and EXPERIENCE not something you “believe” in. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/97 "2016-02-05T18:54:48Z")
“We’re not worthy! We’re not worthy!” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/98 "2016-02-05T20:28:05Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I actually started typing out an analysis of the questions but then the Holy Spirit talked to me and said “Why are you wasting your time on this one, he is not interested in changing his mind. Didn’t Jesus mention something about swines and pearls?” and I figured I should probably listen to that… > > But yeah, Jesus was an enlightenment teacher like every buddha or real saint before and after him. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t grokk that yet. > > If you want to find out for yourself, follow the injunctions (meditate or whatnot). It’s supposed to be something you DO and EXPERIENCE not something you “believe” in. Your anachronistic readings of Jesus are roughly equivalent to the infamous Supply Side Jesus in the relation of this false “jesus” to the historical one. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/99 "2016-02-05T20:38:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Your anachronistic readings of Jesus are roughly equivalent to the infamous Supply Side Jesus in the relation of this false “jesus” to the historical one. So you’re saying that the version where he’s born by a virgin, does a bunch of magic tricks and then ascends to the skies is more likely than that he had an experience of enlightenment and then spent a few years trying to teach people to “see it”? To me it seems pretty obvious that Jesus, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, all the Buddhas etc etc are talking about exactly the same thing, just using different language depending on the cultural context. The short version of which being: “You are not what you take yourself to be. All is One, transcend the ego and see for yourself.” Same as the core message in all buddhist traditions and all of the mystical traditions that I am aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629/100 "2016-02-05T20:40:43Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > So you’re saying that the version where he’s born by a virgin, does a bunch of magic tricks and then ascends to the skies is more likely than that he had an experience of enlightenment and then spent a few years trying to teach people to “see it”? Yes, insofar as the canonical Gospels were written first. > [@](#): > > To me it seems pretty obvious that Jesus, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, all the Buddhas etc etc are talking about exactly the same thing, just using different language depending on the cultural context. The short version of which being: “You are not what you take yourself to be. All is One, transcend the ego and see for yourself.” Same as the core message in all buddhist traditions and all of the mystical traditions that I am aware of. Except there is literally no evidence that someone in 1st Century Palestine would have been influenced by Indian spiritual ideas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictions-in-genesis/744629.md?page=6)