# Contradictory philosophies by the same artist **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165 "2013-01-23T23:58:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/21 "2013-01-26T16:19:24Z")
On Automatic for the People, REM advocated for assisted suicide in “Try Not to Breath,” then urged suicidal people to hold on, because “Everybody Hurts” just two songs later. i know it’s not the exact same issue, but i found it interesting ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/22 "2013-01-28T04:58:43Z")
In the original version of Kate Bush’s song _And So Is Love_ on her album _The Red Shoes_ the refrain was “life is sad and so is love.” When she re-recorded it for her album _Director’s Cut_ the refrain was changed to “life is sweet and so is love”. Two philosophys, one song. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/23 "2013-01-28T05:12:32Z")
The first time I saw _Star Wars,_ Han shot Greebo in cold blood because that was life on the edge, kill or be killed. Years later when I saw it again, Greebo fired at Han and missed, and then Han shot Greebo in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/24 "2013-01-28T06:15:20Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Although you are no doubt right that the Tea Party could get behind the song, I don’t think the fact that George didn’t like paying income tax at the 95% rate really tells us all that much about his underlying ideological attitudes. You do not have to be a libertarian to dislike paying that much in taxes; you do not even have to think it is wrong in principle. Exactly what I was going to say. The song was a protest against the insanely high tax rate they were forced to pay (far greater than the top tax Americans who whine about such things pay today); neither Harrison (who wrote the song, with a tiny help in lyrics from John) nor Lennon were libertarian/conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/25 "2013-01-28T06:34:54Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Although you are no doubt right that the Tea Party could get behind the song, I don’t think the fact that George didn’t like paying income tax at the 95% rate really tells us all that much about his underlying ideological attitudes. You do not have to be a libertarian to dislike paying that much in taxes; you do not even have to think it is wrong in principle. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Exactly what I was going to say. The song was a protest against the insanely high tax rate they were forced to pay (far greater than the top tax Americans who whine about such things pay today); neither Harrison (who wrote the song, with a tiny help in lyrics from John) nor Lennon were libertarian/conservative. Thanks for the info. I always thought Harrison and Lennon were of a libertarian/socialist bent although hardly conservative. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/26 "2013-01-28T16:21:29Z")
John Lennon: Happiness Is A Warm Gun versus Give Peace A Chance ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/27 "2013-01-28T16:22:54Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > John Lennon: Happiness Is A Warm Gun versus Give Peace A Chance 🙂 Um, Warm Gun is a euphamism. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/28 "2013-01-28T16:56:27Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > John Lennon: Happiness Is A Warm Gun versus Give Peace A Chance Lennon said he saw “Happiness is a warm gun” on the cover on a magazine and it struck him as odd..celebrating that you killed a living creature. The Beatles could sing about “All You Need Is Love” and spend years in litigation with each other. Lennon could write “Imagine no possessions” and love in the Dakota in New York City with a $150 million net worth in the late 1970s ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/29 "2013-01-30T13:29:43Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Lennon could write “Imagine no possessions” and love in the Dakota in New York City with a $150 million net worth in the late 1970s Well, yeah, but he could _ **imagine** _ no possessions. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/30 "2013-01-30T17:11:06Z")
Sting sang “If You Love Someone, Set Them Free.” But earlier, in “Every Breath You Take,” he was a stalker, ominously threatening his beloved, and vowing never to let her get away. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/31 "2013-01-30T17:45:34Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Sting sang “If You Love Someone, Set Them Free.” But earlier, in “Every Breath You Take,” he was a stalker, ominously threatening his beloved, and vowing never to let her get away. Yes, but “Every Breath You Take” is sung in character. Sting is not approving of the stalker. You are _meant_ to find him creepy, and the music reinforces that. Likewise, no way was the sentence “Happiness is a Warm Gun” ever meant to be taken as an expression of Lennon’s actual feelings, and in the context of the song it is clearly intended ironically/satirically. Inasmuch as the song is saying anything about guns (and that may not be very much) it is saying that people who like guns are creepy. It is too easy to find contradictory views in people’s songs if you take some of their words out of context, whether the context of the other words, of the music, or of the artist’s persona. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/32 "2013-01-30T18:32:41Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It is too easy to find contradictory views in people’s songs if you take some of their words out of context, whether the context of the other words, of the music, or of the artist’s persona. Peter Gabriel’s “persona” songs, like Intruder (POV of a home invasion rapist), Family Snapshot (political assassin), Big Time (narcissistic douche). He takes on some yucky personas in fascinating ways. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/33 "2013-01-30T18:49:09Z")
**Pat Benatar** Though the lyrics do not necessarily contradict each other it is interesting to note that on her album “Crimes of Passion” The songs “ **Hit Me with Your Best Shot** ” and “ **Hell is for Children** ” are next to each other. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/34 "2013-01-30T20:15:43Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > **Pat Benatar** > > Though the lyrics do not necessarily contradict each other it is interesting to note that on her album “Crimes of Passion” The songs “ **Hit Me with Your Best Shot** ” and “ **Hell is for Children** ” are next to each other. I remember reading a review of that LP, and that is the first thing the reviewer noted (quite negatively, I might add). ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/35 "2013-01-30T20:40:10Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Yes, but “Every Breath You Take” is sung in character. Sting is not approving of the stalker. You are _meant_ to find him creepy, and the music reinforces that. > > Likewise, no way was the sentence “Happiness is a Warm Gun” ever meant to be taken as an expression of Lennon’s actual feelings, and in the context of the song it is clearly intended ironically/satirically. Inasmuch as the song is saying anything about guns (and that may not be very much) it is saying that people who like guns are creepy. > > It is too easy to find contradictory views in people’s songs if you take some of their words out of context, whether the context of the other words, of the music, or of the artist’s persona. True enough, but it still fits the topic at hand- songs by the same artist expressing vastly different attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/36 "2013-01-30T21:07:30Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > The first time I saw _Star Wars,_ Han shot Greebo in cold blood because that was life on the edge, kill or be killed. > > Years later when I saw it again, Greebo fired at Han and missed, and then Han shot Greebo in self defense. Nonsense. If Han ever even _thought_ about doing such a thing, he’d find himself believing he was some kind of amphibious creature pretty _tout_ damn _de suite_. And I betcha Mistress Weatherwax wouldn’t say “Boo” to Mrs. Ogg about it, for all that there’s no love lost between her and Greebo. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/37 "2013-01-30T22:23:47Z")
U2 writes songs praising non violent people such as Gandhi and King and then write “God Part 2” on the “Rattle and Hum” album threatening to kill John Lennon biographer Albert Goldman. At least Goldman thought “Instant Karma’s going get him, if I don’t get him first” was a threat against his life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/38 "2013-01-30T23:33:38Z")
> [@H3Knuckles](#): > > While not as direct a contradiction, there’s the Robert Heinlein stuff. On the one hand he wrote Starship Troopers, which many people insist is a genuine representation of his beliefs at the time, which argues a pseudo-fascist highly militaristic (and presumably conservative) world view. On the other hand, he wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, which AIUI is all about free love and libertarianism. And in his first novel (first written, that is – published posthumously), [he describes a future utopia based in part on [url=[Social credit - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit)]social credit.](]_For Us, The Living,_[/url) > [@](#): > > At a number of points in _For Us, the Living,_ Heinlein describes an environment in which individuals are able to choose whether or not to accept a job. Passing references are made to the large number of individuals who take up art or other careers that traditionally do not pay well. The book also points out the short working hours and high wages paid to employees. The book ascribes this flexible working environment to the social credit system (the “Dividend”) adopted by the United States which provides enough new capital in the economic system to overcome the problems of overproduction while providing a guaranteed minimal income for all members of society. Commie! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/39 "2013-01-30T23:48:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And in his first novel (first written, that is – published posthumously), [he describes a future utopia based in part on [url=[Social credit - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit)]social credit.](]_For Us, The Living,_[/url) And, the society depicted in Heinlein’s first published novel\*, [_Beyond This Horizon,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_This_Horizon) appears to be based on the same system. - Published as a serial in _Astounding Science Fiction_ in 1942, not published in novel form until 1948. His first novel published as a novel was [_Rocket Ship Galileo_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Ship_Galileo) (1947), which expresses no politics other than “Nazis are bad.” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165/40 "2013-01-31T09:01:28Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > True enough, but it still fits the topic at hand- songs by the same artist expressing vastly different attitudes. The OP does not refer to contradictory attitudes, it refers to contradictory “philosophies” or “messages”. The messages of, or philosophies behind the two Sting songs you mentioned are not contradictory, they are very consistent. They express different attitudes only because one expresses that of the singer himself, and the other that of a character of whom he clearly disapproves. The same goes for the Lennon songs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/contradictory-philosophies-by-the-same-artist/648165.md?page=3)