# Controlled rhino dehorning **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300 "2012-03-20T12:43:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/41 "2012-03-21T12:35:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, it is not my contention. > > My contention was, if government officials have demonstrated that they respond to bribes from poachers, it is logicial to conclude they will respond to a larger bribe to crack down on poachers. 1. Are you proposing that the United States bribe officials from another country? 2. The bribes they now receive are usually coupled with threats towards officials and their loved ones. Are we to match those, too? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/42 "2012-03-21T12:58:19Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And as as was pointed out, that won’t work because they will take both bribes and permit poaching anyway. Is that the way they treat the poachers? Take their bribes, but arrest them anyway? You don’t understand how bribes work, I guess. Sure, if corrupt officials worked the way you think they work, they could take our initial bribes and screw us; but then they would receive no further bribes. Bribery is not a one time thing; the poachers know this, why don’t you? The one thing that is true for all corrupt officials is they like money, and they sell the power of their position to get more of it. The corrupt official who screws the person who pays the largest bribe isn’t demonstrating that avarice. I think you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/43 "2012-03-21T13:00:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Are you proposing that the United States bribe officials from another country?/ No. I am proposing that NGO animal welfare groups bribe government officials. > [@](#): > > 1. The bribes they now receive are usually coupled with threats towards officials and their loved ones. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/44 "2012-03-21T13:23:31Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Cite? [/QUOTE] Ever seen the show Wild Justice? Poachers HERE have been known to take shots at local law enforcement. And you find it odd that this would be the case in some 3rd world hell hole?? > [@](#): > > Is that the way they treat the poachers? Take their bribes, but arrest them anyway? You don’t understand how bribes work, I guess. Sure, if corrupt officials worked the way you think they work, they could take our initial bribes and screw us; but then they would receive no further bribes. Bribery is not a one time thing; the poachers know this, why don’t you? They would take the NGO’s money, they would take the poachers money, and they would put whatever goes for law enforcement out there to look like they were doing something. Perhaps they would even seize some percentage of the horns, or catch some poachers (probably one’s who hadn’t bribed them). The NGO would be happy because something was Being Done™, even though, regrettably, some rhinos were still being killed. On the other hand, the poachers would be happy, since they would have law enforcement and/or these officials telling them where they would be on a given day, so that they could be somewhere else killing a rhino. Again, this is exactly how the illegal drug trade works in other countries. The US ‘pays’ a hell of a lot of money to countries that have large illegal drug manufacturing operations in them. And the officials happily take our money. Sometimes they even try to make a real dent, though that generally tends to lead to dead officials and local law enforcement types. The drugs keep getting made though, and keep pouring into the US, regardless of the bribes or incentives we attempt to give the local officials or local law enforcement. Seriously, you KNOW this is how it works…and it works the same here in the US. We pay our local, state and federal law enforcement folks a pretty good wage, and have special task forces and agencies who’s sole duty is to attack the illegal drug trade. And yet, it’s still going as strongly as ever, with no end in site. > [@](#): > > The one thing that is true for all corrupt officials is they like money, and they sell the power of their position to get more of it. The corrupt official who screws the person who pays the largest bribe isn’t demonstrating that avarice. I think you are wrong. Nope…it’s you who are wrong. A STUPID corrupt official might come right out and screw over one of the groups giving him or her bribes. A smart one would simply make it seem like they were doing everything they could for your theoretical NGO while at the same time taking bribes from the poachers. In the end, if the NGO gets wise (which is highly unlikely to happen…and even if it did the NGO might rationalize that some help is better than none at all), well…the poachers are closer to home, they are still giving out those bribes, and they have guns. The NGO might get mad, but the poachers have stuff that can take down a rhino after all…and since the trade is so lucrative, they have plenty of money. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/45 "2012-03-21T13:52:37Z")
It seems better to educate the source of demand for rhino horns, rather than farming them to satisfy these people’s ridiculous beliefs. Relevant map for countries involved in rhino horn trade: [http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/rhino-wars/rhino-map](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/rhino-wars/rhino-map) ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/46 "2012-03-21T14:33:05Z")
Is it better to educate the source of demand for all animal products? People don’t really need bacon any more than they need powdered rhino horn, it’s just something that were culturally accustomed to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/47 "2012-03-21T14:36:27Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Is it better to educate the source of demand for all animal products? People don’t really need bacon any more than they need powdered rhino horn, it’s just something that were culturally accustomed to. That would make a great thread about vegetarians vs. meat eaters, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/48 "2012-03-21T14:36:38Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > People don’t really need bacon any more than they need powdered rhino horn, it’s just something that were culturally accustomed to. I don’t want to live in a world where all I get are the things I need. I like bacon. Bacon tastes good. That is why I eat bacon, not because I am culturally indoctrinated. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/49 "2012-03-21T14:39:44Z")
As a Jew who grew up in a vegetarian household, I can certify that the idea of bacon being a cultural artifact only is, well, dumb. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/50 "2012-03-21T15:07:28Z")
It’s not about vegetarians vs. meat-eaters, it could be about anything that kills animals. Furs, sport hunting, whatever. I wrote bacon because it is considered an unhealthy food, so someone could argue that it is ridiculous to eat it. But yes, I do eat bacon because it tastes good. People who buy ornamental rhino lamps and knives, or rhino “medicines,” presumably get some satisfaction from having these things, just like we do from our dead animals. As someone from a culture that kills a lot of animals, I think it would hypocritical to try to educate people out of killing rhinos, unless I was also willing to give up my ridiculous demands for animal products. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/51 "2012-03-21T15:30:40Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > I think it would hypocritical to try to educate people out of killing rhinos, unless I was also willing to give up my ridiculous demands for animal products. I don’t see why. The issue is not about killing animals; it is about killing endangered species, like the rhino. Bacon does not come from an endangered species, so it is not hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/52 "2012-03-21T16:00:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Related article. > > [The Straight Dope: Has Viagra helped endangered species…?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2985/has-viagra-helped-endangered-species-by-reducing-demand-for-rhino-horn-etc) Well that’s depressing > [@Brandus](#): > > It seems better to educate the source of demand for rhino horns, rather than farming them to satisfy these people’s ridiculous beliefs. > > Relevant map for countries involved in rhino horn trade: [http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/rhino-wars/rhino-map](http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/rhino-wars/rhino-map) > [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Is it better to educate the source of demand for all animal products? People don’t really need bacon any more than they need powdered rhino horn, it’s just something that were culturally accustomed to. I’ve got it, the perfect solution: We need to arm the rhinos against the poacher! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/53 "2012-03-21T16:11:08Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > As someone from a culture that kills a lot of animals, I think it would hypocritical to try to educate people out of killing rhinos, unless I was also willing to give up my ridiculous demands for animal products. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t see why. The issue is not about killing animals; it is about killing endangered species, like the rhino. Bacon does not come from an endangered species, so it is not hypocrisy. Exactly. Extinction isn’t culturally relative. And some of us have already cut down on our ridiculous demand for animal products, so I feel no compunction about telling people to stop doing this kind of moronic shit. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/54 "2012-03-21T17:21:15Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I think what we need to do is start spreading a rumor that the pituitary gland of Chinese herbalists can be used to make a powerful aphrodisiac. I usually say “elderly Chinese gentlemen” where you say “Chinese herbalists,” but yeah. Another idea – can’t we re-task some of these drone strikes for environmental purposes? ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/55 "2012-03-21T18:12:05Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Another idea – can’t we re-task some of these drone strikes for environmental purposes? The South African government [has actually considered that](http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article784374.ece/Drone-to-hunt-poachers). And as far as “declaring open season on poachers” and all that, as mentioned upthread, I can’t speak for the other countries but in South Africa we have these annoying little issues we call “human rights” and “due process”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/56 "2012-03-21T18:55:51Z")
[QUOTE=ctnguy] And as far as “declaring open season on poachers” and all that, as mentioned upthread, I can’t speak for the other countries but in South Africa we have these annoying little issues we call “human rights” and “due process”. [/QUOTE] I suspect that most of the folks demonstrating a measure of blood-thirsty-ness wrt poachers in this thread would be screaming bloody murder if someone (especially the US) actually went after poachers in such manners. It’s similar to the folks in the US soldier accused of murdering all those Afghan women and children threads howling for blood…if we ACTUALLY tossed him to the crowd to be strung up they would suddenly remember how they really feel about the short circuiting the justice system, that due process stuff and the death penalty rather quickly. It’s a knotty problem, no doubt about it, and one that doesn’t have an easy solution. As with the illegal drug issue, the REAL solution is to go to the root of the market and attempt to shift that market away from their desire for the product…or make the cost of purchasing such products extremely steep, and not just in monetary terms. Trying to stop these things on the production end just doesn’t work very effectively, since there is enough money in it that shutting down or curtailing the operations of one just has two more spring up in their place. Even the blood thirsty and highly inappropriate calls for armed predator drones and summary executions of those caught wouldn’t really work, even if those calling for them actually thought it through…if there is enough money involved then folks are going to step up to take the risks. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/57 "2012-03-22T13:53:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Even the blood thirsty and highly inappropriate calls for armed predator drones I’m trying to figure out what you consider inappropriate. Do you find defense expenditure _generally_ inappropriate? Are you against using drones to defend Americans? Or is it just that these are animals? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/58 "2012-03-22T14:06:02Z")
I’m not even comfortable with using these armed drones in Afghanistan, let alone to summarily whack some poachers in Africa. I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable using armed drones to ‘defend Americans’, if by that you mean in anti-drug or anti-immigration taskings. Are you saying you ARE comfortable using armed drones against smugglers or poachers?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/59 "2012-03-22T18:47:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m not even comfortable with using these armed drones in Afghanistan, let alone to summarily whack some poachers in Africa. I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable using armed drones to ‘defend Americans’, if by that you mean in anti-drug or anti-immigration taskings. Are you saying you ARE comfortable using armed drones against smugglers or poachers?? > > -XT I’m saying that SINCE my government is apparently going to use them anyway to kill people perceived as threats, _regardless_ of my wishes, I’d like to add poachers to the targeting queue – might as well get some environmental good out of it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300/60 "2012-03-22T18:49:21Z")
I’m hoping you are saying that tongue in cheek. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controlled-rhino-dehorning/616300.md?page=4)