# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 115
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2288 "2021-12-16T21:16:44Z")
The Sheriff is a crazy, but the kids shouldn’t have been ringing doorbells and running away. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2289 "2021-12-16T21:34:16Z")
Why? Is that a crime? If I knock on a door am I legally obliged to remain there until it is answered? Don’t blame the victims, **Rick**. Rspecially not to defend a racist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2290 "2021-12-17T05:18:02Z")
I don’t recall seeing this last month: > **[Catskill man burst into flames after police tasered him](https://www.timesunion.com/hudsonvalley/news/article/Catskill-man-burst-into-flames-after-police-16595504.php)** > > A 29-year-old Catskill man is in a Syracuse burn unit after he burst into flames when... Here’s the article I found today: > **[Man Dies After He Is Shot by the Police With a Stun Gun and Catches Fire...](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/nyregion/man-catskill-police-stun-gun-dies.html)** > > New York’s attorney general said her office would investigate the man’s death, which followed an altercation in an upstate police station. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2291 "2021-12-17T05:22:42Z")
I posted this as the OP to a Great Debates thread but it is a controversial encounter between law enforcement and a civilian: > [@Kevin Byrd v. Ray Lamb (Absolute immunity case, eh)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kevin-byrd-v-ray-lamb-absolute-immunity-case-eh/956198/1): > > The basics: > > Kevin Byrd received notice that his ex-GF, the mother of this son, had been in a very bad car accident. He drove to the hospital to see her and then drove to the bar where she and her current BF has been the night before. > > While in the parking lot, a man approached his car with a gun drawn and threatened him, telling him to exit the car or he would be shot. Mr. Byrd refused. The gunman attempted to break the driver’s side window with his gun but failed to do so. A round was ejected. He then attempted to shoot Mr. Byrd, but the gun jammed. > > Mr. Byrd had by now called 911. The police arrived to the standoff and promptly arrested Mr. Byrd. > > After reviewing the security footage, they released Mr. Byrd and arrested the other man, Ray Lamb, whose son had been the other party in the accident involving the ex-GF. > > Except that Mr. Lamb is also Homeland Security Agent Lamb, and an appeals court says that as a federal officer he is immune to all lawsuits and prosecution. > > Hence the seeking of _certiorari_ from the SCOTUS. Links: Here’s a fairly good altho concise news article: > **[Texas man held at gunpoint by federal agent seeks Supreme Court intervention](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-texas-man-gunpoint-federal-agents/)** > > "Are federal officials somehow different than state and local officials?" said Anya Bidwell, a lawyer with the Institute for Justice. Here’s a recent under-5-minute video about the _cert_ filing, which includes the video of the incident: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GhaJQJJcYjA/maxresdefault.jpg "A federal agent tried to shoot an innocent man. Will the Supreme Court allow accountability?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhaJQJJcYjA) Here’s the actual petition: > **[20210806152332306\_Petition%20for%20a%20Writ%20of%20Certiorari.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-184/186937/20210806152332306_Petition%20for%20a%20Writ%20of%20Certiorari.pdf)** > > 562.46 KB ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2292 "2021-12-17T15:06:01Z")
Yes, all this. Stop blaming victims. The cop committed felonies. The children left a Thanksgiving turkey on his door. I would guess the “single alcoholic drink” he had consumed that night was 375 ML of bourbon. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2293 "2021-12-17T16:21:33Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > The children left a Thanksgiving turkey on his door. They left a thank you card in the shape of a turkey on his door. That means they had to touch his door, which appears to be what set him off. This is (let me be crystal clear about this) no excuse for his behavior, it is simply a more accurate account of what happened, based on the linked article. What he did after that was astonishingly ugly, including putting a gun up against a long-time neighbor’s (and fellow church member’s) head. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2294 "2021-12-17T16:35:32Z")
Oops - I omitted the word “card” after turkey. DOH! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2295 "2021-12-17T20:06:01Z")
So Mr Byrd would have been well within his rights to kill Mr Lamb? Seeing as how he would be defending himself and how Lamb was NOT acting as Federal Agent? Or…that Mr Lamb could have shot Mr Byrd in the face and still been immune from prosecution because…reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2296 "2021-12-17T20:10:09Z")
I certainly think that Mr. Byrd would have been justified in running Mr. Lamb over as he tried to flee or to have simply shot and killed Mr. Lamb but IANAL, just a guy trying to figure out what’s going on here and why, so I won’t be surprised to find out that the courts say otherwise. Disappointed, upset, etc. but not surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2297 "2021-12-17T22:14:36Z")
My google-fu is weak. I cannot find any site that states Lamb was fired or even disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2298 "2021-12-17T23:25:51Z")
Of course he wasn’t. Why would the other hundred thousand unaccountable people want to do that? He makes them look bad? Who gives a fuck? They can do anything they want. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2299 "2021-12-17T23:40:58Z")
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/former-us-policewoman-weeps-on-stand-describing-how-she-shot-black-driver/ar-AARVG8Y?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/former-us-policewoman-weeps-on-stand-describing-how-she-shot-black-driver/ar-AARVG8Y?li=BBnb7Kz) **US former police officer on trial for the death of a young African-American man wept in court Friday as she described how a routine traffic stop descended swiftly into chaos.** Ah, tears. A genuine outpouring of emotion. I wonder if she wept each time her lawyer prepped her on her testimony. Or any emotion at all up till the time she was charged. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2300 "2021-12-18T23:51:17Z")
> [@Kevin Byrd v. Ray Lamb (Absolute immunity case, eh)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kevin-byrd-v-ray-lamb-absolute-immunity-case-eh/956198/1): > > Except that Mr. Lamb is also Homeland Security Agent Lamb, and an appeals court says that as a federal officer he is immune to all lawsuits and prosecution. > > Hence the seeking of _certiorari_ from the SCOTUS. I’m a bit confused. Does this mean that any federal agents can do absolutely anything they please at any time, even when off duty… full stop? Anything, and they are immune from prosecution? One of them could rob a bank, kill the tellers and guards, take a pile of money and … Immunity? They just keep the money? Or are they just allowed to threaten anyone they like with a gun? Where’s the line for what crimes they are allowed to commit? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2301 "2021-12-19T00:17:30Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Immunity? They just keep the money? Of course not, don’t be ridiculous! The money would be split with the department to buy some new margarita machines. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2302 "2021-12-19T03:13:12Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Ah, tears. A genuine outpouring of emotion. I wonder if she wept each time her lawyer prepped her on her testimony. Or any emotion at all up till the time she was charged. Judging from her partner’s body-cam footage, she seemed pretty bent out of shape in the moments right after she shot the kid. Do you have some reason to believe she doesn’t feel terrible about what she did? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2303 "2021-12-19T07:16:11Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Do you have some reason to believe she doesn’t feel terrible about what she did? I am in my Escalade doing 80 in a 35, hey, maybe I should slow down a little for this curve, whoa, did I put that Sentra into that tree just now? Watching those body bags being loaded into the ambulance was emotionally wrenching, I feel terrible, just gut-wrenched about killing that family. So do you think that my remorse should count for more than my carelessness? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2304 "2021-12-19T07:18:22Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So do you think that my remorse should count for more than my carelessness? That wasn’t what you were asked, was it? “Do you have some reason to believe she doesn’t feel terrible about what she did?” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2305 "2021-12-19T20:06:40Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So do you think that my remorse should count for more than my carelessness? @Typo_Negative’s remarks suggest they believe Potter’s remorse was feigned. I’m wondering what supports that belief. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2306 "2021-12-19T20:45:18Z")
I’m sure that she has some amount of remorse over having taken someone’s life. I’m also sure that she _shows_ far more remorse due to the fact that she is being held accountable for having taken someone’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2307 "2021-12-19T20:51:23Z")
Did you happen to see her reaction right after it happened? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=114) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=116)