# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2848 "2022-08-23T17:44:05Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > your brother _already_ beat the shit out of him I think what you meant to say was, he beat him to the left, he beat him to the right, the motherfucker whooped his ass all night. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2849 "2022-08-23T17:47:24Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Police in Ohio raided Afroman’s home for unclear reasons… 'Cause he got high. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2850 "2022-08-24T18:04:18Z")
Black Kansas City cop fired for reporting a fellow cop for misconduct. > **['I Felt Like a Criminal': Black Kansas City Cop Demoted, Stripped of...](https://atlantablackstar.com/2022/08/23/i-felt-like-a-criminal-black-kansas-city-cop-demoted-stripped-of-credentials-escorted-out-of-building-for-reporting-colleagues-misconduct/)** > > A Kansas City, Missouri, detective alleges he was punished for reporting misconduct by another cop. Arthur Willingham, 52, was a member of the Drug ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2851 "2022-08-24T18:13:45Z")
Per the article, not fired but demoted. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2852 "2022-08-24T18:17:44Z")
Walked out of the building. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2853 "2022-08-24T18:24:30Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Walked out of the building. As a mostly proud resident of KC, MO I’m not surprised by the police actions here. However, I’m guessing he was walked out of the building the DEA joint task force operated out (presumably not a KCPD building), since per the article: > [@](#): > > The department said on Aug. 12 that he is currently a detective in the Investigations Bureau. So demoted and humiliated for snitching, but not (yet) fired or harassed until he quits. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2854 "2022-08-24T21:59:24Z")
I’m guessing somehow HE will lose his pension and the crooked cop he outed will not. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2855 "2022-08-26T00:03:34Z")
> **[Black Pastor Arrested After He Was Seen Watering Neighbors' Flowers](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-pastor-arrested-after-he-was-seen-watering-neighbors-flowers/vi-AA116A7N?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=a8e88928e0ca48cf969d69dd2d354693&category=foryou)** > > Alabama police arrested a Black pastor after he was seen watering his neighbor's flowers. Pastor Michael Jennings was watering his neighbor's flowers when someone called 911. An officer approached Jennings and explained they received a call that he... That’s it. He was watering neighbor’s flowers. And he was black. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2856 "2022-08-26T01:22:25Z")
Not, in any way, that this couldn’t have, shouldn’t have, been handled better by the police involved but, > { ~~-~~ } When cops asked for his ID, Jennings declined to provide it { ~~-~~ } he was legally required to identify himself, > **2006 Alabama Code - Section 15-5-30 — Authority of peace officer to stop and question.** > A sheriff or other officer acting as sheriff, his deputy or any constable, acting within their respective counties, any marshal, deputy marshal or policeman of any incorporated city or town within the limits of the county or any highway patrolman or state trooper may stop any person abroad in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions. Even if it was just, as the law actually requires, a verbal ID. The cops fucked that up. And yeah, what the fuck “we can’t unarrest you”? That’s the real bullshit here. After finding out it was clearly a mistake of the 911 caller and getting not just an ID but his physical ID. The whole thing should have been treated as the ‘nothing to see here, sorry we bothered you’ thing that it was. Not that Pastor Jennings refusal to ID at all (which was the cops fault for not asking the correct question) and walking away didn’t set the scene to go ‘south’ in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2857 "2022-08-26T01:38:10Z")
> –may stop any person abroad in a public place **whom he reasonably suspects** is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions. (Emphasis mine). Absent probable cause, asking for identification in this instance is a civil rights violation. Besides which, he told them who he was, and he didn’t have ID on him. His wife provided the ID later, but it was too late, “we can’t unarrest you.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2858 "2022-08-26T02:06:04Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Absent probable cause Like these cops, who couldn’t correctly ask for an identification not an ID, couldn’t spin some ““probable cause”” up out of the air! And I’m not at all certain that “reasonably suspects” actually is the same standard as “probable cause”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2859 "2022-08-26T02:35:18Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And I’m not at all certain that “reasonably suspects” actually is the same standard as “probable cause”. That’s because they aren’t the same standard, > When an officer stops someone to search the person, courts require that the officer has either a search warrant, probable cause to search, or a reasonable suspicion to search. In descending order of what gives an officer the broadest authority to perform a search, courts have found that the order is search warrant, probable cause, and then reasonable suspicion. also, > In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004), a Nevada state statute “requires a person detained by an officer [during a Terry stop] to identify himself” by providing his name. In Hiibel, the Supreme Court held that because the statute only asked for a name, not identification, and because it did “not alter the nature of the stop itself, changing neither its duration nor its location,” the statute “properly balances the intrusion on the individual’s interests against the promotion of legitimate government interests.” Thus the Court held that the statute is constitutional. From [reasonable suspicion | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/reasonable_suspicion) Who’da guessed that watching ~~Law Schoolhouse Rock~~ Arthur Miller doing Law 101 on PBS all those years would pay off? ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2860 "2022-08-26T02:58:48Z")
Fine, _reasonably suspect._ He was watering flowers, for the love of muffins. The woman who called 9-1-1 on him even came over and _realized_ she’d fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2861 "2022-08-26T03:39:37Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > He was watering flowers, for the love of muffins. Also for the love of muffins picking up the hose and watering flowers is the perfect thing for the lookout guy to do while his buddies are ransacking the house. If only the good Pastor had thought to say ‘Hi, I don’t have my ID on me, but, I’m Michael Jennings, I’m a pastor, I live across the street, and I’m watering my neighbor’s flowers at their request’. The cops don’t know who you are or why you’re doing what you’re doing and not being cooperative sets off the ‘shit just got potentially dangerous’ bell in cops heads. > [@ekedolphin](#): > > The woman who called 9-1-1 on him even came over and _realized_ she’d fucked up. Yeah, the woman that, apparently, can’t tell a ‘Black man up to no good’ from the guy she lives on the same fucking block with. Mind you, that was after Pastor Jennings decided to make himself look suspicious by not giving his name (See: _Cops done fucked up_ above.) and walking away from the cops in the middle of an investigation. Look, I don’t like any of this. I’ve had more _routine traffic stops turn into Terry stops for driving a beater and looking like a biker and never even gotten a ticket_ than I’d like to count. But, I’ve also seen too many videos of folks refusing to ID, who, when they were finally IDed, got shiny metal bracelets because they were driving while revoked or had outstanding warrants. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2862 "2022-08-26T04:25:58Z")
A case of assisted suicide by a cop > **[Watch: Examining the investigation](https://news.yahoo.com/watch-examining-investigation-205037390.html)** > > The entire investigative file of an officer-involved shooting in Overland Park, Kan., from January 2018 was released, giving insight into how police investigated an officer who killed a teen threatening suicide. > When 17-year-old John Albers posted threats of suicide on social media in January 2018, worried friends called 911 for help. The high school student was backing his family minivan out of the garage when he was shot 13 times by an Overland Park, Kan., police officer who responded to the call. Within a month, the prosecutor in Johnson County, Kan., Steve Howe, declared that the fatal shooting was justified and charges would not be filed. > **[Inside the investigation of an officer who killed a teen threatening suicide](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/08/23/overland-park-police-shooting-investigation/)** > > In a rare opportunity, the entire investigative file of an officer-involved shooting was released, giving insight into how police investigated another officer. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2863 "2022-08-26T12:44:10Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If only the good Pastor had thought to say ‘Hi, I don’t have my ID on me, but, I’m Michael Jennings, I’m a pastor, I live across the street, and I’m watering my neighbor’s flowers at their request’. I’m not sure if this is a whoosh, but he said, “I’m Pastor Jennings, I live across the street.” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2864 "2022-08-26T13:42:11Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Look, I don’t like any of this. I’ve had more _routine traffic stops turn into Terry stops for driving a beater and looking like a biker and never even gotten a ticket_ than I’d like to count. > But, I’ve also seen too many videos of folks refusing to ID, who, when they were finally IDed, got shiny metal bracelets because they were driving while revoked or had outstanding warrants. Driving is different, you actually _are_ required to produce ID if you are pulled over while driving, that’s something that you agree to as part of getting your license. And, honestly, “outstanding warrants” is often pretty bullshit. Bench warrants don’t always get issued for actual good cause, and they aren’t always cleared out of the system when the legal issue is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![PackerMan2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/packerman2/32/2894_2.png) [@PackerMan2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PackerMan2)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2865 "2022-08-26T14:44:14Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > reasonably suspects is committing, has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense How did the police reasonable suspect he was committing a crime other than the fact he is black? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2866 "2022-08-26T14:58:58Z")
Ask them, 'cause I’m sure they can make something up that sounds somewhat reasonable. Have we suddenly forgotten that probable cause and reasonable suspicion are, pretty much, whatever the cop needs them to be? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/2867 "2022-08-26T15:29:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Have we suddenly forgotten that probable cause and reasonable suspicion are, pretty much, whatever the cop needs them to be? Well, no, that’s the whole point of this thread. But, as to the point of this thread, it is to condemn them for those actions, not to justify their actions or chastise others for condemning them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=144)