# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 161
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3208 "2023-02-01T15:14:36Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > “Hmmmm. I wonder if this person has an active warrant out on them? I hope so.” If not, let’s fix that. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3209 "2023-02-01T15:20:57Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > I’m not sure what the most egregious example of this is, but a contender has to be this incident from Colorado. TLDWatch: Mr. Sowl happened to be at the scene when a motorcylce accident occurred. Johnny Law decides that he’s getting ID from everyone who was in the parking lot. Mr. Sowl refuses and Johnny Law roughs him up but good. That incident cost the city of Loveland $300,000: > **[Loveland police officer violated policy in arrest of motorcycle crash...](https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/2021/06/30/loveland-police-officer-violated-policy-arrest-crash-witness/7798945002/)** > > Loveland police officer violated department policy when he arrested a witness of a motorcycle crash for refusing to answer questions in 2019. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3210 "2023-02-01T15:42:17Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Mr. Sowl happened to be at the scene when a motorcylce accident occurred. Johnny Law decides that he’s getting ID from everyone who was in the parking lot. To be fair, I can think of reasons I would want ID from various bystanders - witnesses to a crime who might be called on to testify in court; witnesses to an accident to give more information later; if a (potentially) toxic material was involved; etc. - things where you might need to get ahold of them at a later date. > [@HeyHomie](#): > > Mr. Sowl refuses and Johnny Law roughs him up but good. Yeah, there’s no call for that. We need to get all of these Eric Cartman’s off of police forces. They all think that “Force” is in the name for the wrong definition. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3211 "2023-02-01T15:46:46Z")
@Dr.Winston_OBoogie are you in law enforcement? I’m not asking as a Gotcha, I’m genuinely curious and, if so, I appreciate your contributions to this discussion from your point of view. You say “I would _want_ ID…” (emphasis mine). I respect that, and I can see legitimate reasons for your wanting ID. However, if the people you wanted ID from refused, would you simply say “OK, it was worth a shot” (so to speak) or would you try to beg, cajole, threaten, and possibly force it? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3212 "2023-02-01T15:51:51Z")
Nope. Not in law enforcement. Speaking just as my opinion and common sense. It’s a lot easier to get ahold of people if you have their contact information, and the quickest, easiest way is to have information from some kind of state ID. WERE I an officer at such a scene, as I’m getting statements, talking to bystanders, whatever, I would explain it as “What did you see? Can I get an ID in case we need to get ahold of you?” Maybe beg / cajole, but certainly not threaten or force. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3213 "2023-02-01T15:54:02Z")
As I understand the law, barring specific instances where you are required by law to show a license (while operating a motor vehicle, for example), you don’t have to show a cop Jack shit. You have to identify yourself, but they cannot require you to produce documentation of same. For the moment, this is still a free country. We don’t have to “show our papers” to anybody. Lawyers/LEOs please correct me if I am way off base here. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3214 "2023-02-01T15:59:12Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > As I understand the law, barring specific instances where you are required by law to show a license (while operating a motor vehicle, for example), you don’t have to show a cop Jack shit. You have to identify yourself, but they cannot require you to produce documentation of same. For the moment, this is still a free country. We don’t have to “show our papers” to anybody. I absolutely agree - you don’t have to show a cop jack shit. That being said, if I’m a LEO at a scene and I might need to contact you at a later date, I’m going to **ask** for your license so I have the name and address right there - don’t have to worry about spelling, mishearing, etc. Boom, done. Makes life easier. Again, that doesn’t excuse said officer’s physical abuse of someone who _doesn’t_ produce an ID. For a reasonable reason, it’s a reasonable request. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3215 "2023-02-01T16:04:17Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > To be fair, I can think of reasons I would want ID from various bystanders And if I, as a bystander/witness do not choose to carry my driver’s license when I’m not driving? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3216 "2023-02-01T16:06:54Z")
That’s a paddlin’… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3217 "2023-02-01T16:21:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And if I, as a bystander/witness do not choose to carry my driver’s license when I’m not driving? Then you don’t have an ID to give. Personally, I always have my license on me in case something happens and I _can’t_ give my name / address / etc., so they have some way of contacting someone. You’re out jogging and get hit by a car, how does your family know you’re in the hospital? What if there was no such thing as hypothetical questions? Of course, there’s valid reasons not to have an ID; there’s valid reasons not to produce an ID. We can sit here and create situations all day. I’m going to stand by my statement that there are plenty of reasonable reasons to ask for an ID, but if one isn’t produced that isn’t a reason to kick the shit out of the person. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3218 "2023-02-01T16:29:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > As I understand the law, barring specific instances where you are required by law to show a license (while operating a motor vehicle, for example), you don’t have to show a cop Jack shit. You have to identify yourself, but they cannot require you to produce documentation of same. Some US states require you to state your name if you are reasonably suspected of being involved in a crime. If there is no reasonable suspicion that you may be involved in a crime, you are not required to state your name anywhere in the US: > **[Stop and identify statutes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes)** > > "Stop and identify" statutes are laws in several U.S. states that authorize police to lawfully order people whom they reasonably suspect of committing a crime to state their name. If there is not reasonable suspicion that a person has committed a crime, is committing a crime, or is about to commit a crime, the person is not required to identify himself or herself, even in these states. > The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and requires warrants to be supported by pr... The Loveland officer was within his authority to politely request Mr. Sowls for ID, but he had no business attempting to arrest Mr. Sowls for refusing to do so. Operators of motor vehicles are required to carry a valid license, and may be required to produce that license during a traffic stop. Passengers are not required to carry any form of ID, and so can’t be compelled to produce ID during a traffic stop, but if they are reasonably suspected of a crime, they may be compelled to verbally identify themselves. > **[Passenger Traffic Stop Rights](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/passenger-rights-during-a-traffic-stop.html)** > > You have passenger rights during a traffic stop under the 4th amendment of the U.S. Constitution. See insights from LegalMatch's law library. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3219 "2023-02-01T16:29:42Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > there’s valid reasons not to produce an ID. If, later today, a cop asks to see my driver’s license in a situation where I’m not operating a motor vehicle, I would answer, “No”, even if it were in my pocket. My reason is because the law says I am not required to, and I consider that a valid reason. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3220 "2023-02-01T16:35:35Z")
Huh, you are being pretty suspicious. _Why_ don’t you want to show me your ID? Now I _need_ you to show your ID, as I now have a reason I can articulate as to why I find your behavior justifies this as an escalation to a Terry stop. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3221 "2023-02-01T16:38:45Z")
I think you’re being sarcastic… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3222 "2023-02-01T16:39:09Z")
My assumption as well. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3223 "2023-02-01T16:42:47Z")
More a parody or satire, I think. It’s certainly not how _I_ think, but it seems to be the way quite a number of cops do. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3224 "2023-02-01T16:48:20Z")
Watch YouTube videos of ID refusals (they are legion). Many times, an informed citizen will ask, “What is your reasonable, articulalable suspicion that I have committed, am committing, or am about to commit a crime?” The cop will then stutter and stumble and mention obstruction or some other vague nothingburger of a crime, or basically say that they suspect the person of being suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3225 "2023-02-01T17:15:25Z")
And of course, everyone will say that you should follow the cop’s orders, the time to question them is not there on the street, but later in court. You are required to follow even _unlawful_ commands. So, if a cop orders you to produce your ID, and you refuse to because he has no right to demand it, he can then arrest you for failure to follow police orders. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3226 "2023-02-01T17:31:19Z")
Very true, though a lot of people (including some of the “auditors” on YT) have a misunderstanding of RAS. A cop can detain you **if** the cop has a reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that you **had** committed a crime, **are** committing a crime, or are **going** to commit a crime. It’s more than just a hunch… it must be _articulable_. As an example, let’s say there’s a bank robbery, and the teller says the robber was a bald man in his 40s wearing a blue shirt. The cops drive around the bank and see _you_ walking on the sidewalk. By coincidence, you also happen to be a 40 year old bald man wearing a blue shirt. Do the cops have RAS to detain you, even though you were not the robber and are doing nothing illegal? Absolutely. And there doesn’t even need to be a specific crime for a cop to have RAS to detain you. As an example, let’s say a man is walking around a parking lot in the middle of night, looking in car windows, and holding a crowbar. By itself, walking around a parking lot at night is not illegal, and would not constitute RAS. By itself, looking in a car window is not illegal, and would not constitute RAS. By itself, carrying a crowbar is not illegal, and would not constitute RAS. But, all three of them taken together _would_ constitute RAS, even if the person did not intend to engage in criminal activity. Here’s something else: if you are detained by a cop but _not_ committing any kind of crime, it means one of two things: 1) the cop has RAS to detain you (see my bank robber example above) and hence the detainment is legal, or 2) the cop does NOT have RAS to detain you and the detainment is illegal. So if you are detained, how do you know if #1 or #2 is true? The answer? **You don’t**. Sure, you can ask the cop, “What RAS do you have to detain me?” But the cop is not required to tell you. I live in Ohio. Let’s say I am detained by a cop, yet I know I am doing absolutely nothing wrong. I ask the cop, “What RAS do you have to detain me?” The cop doesn’t answer. Instead the cop asks me, “Give me your name, address, and date of birth.” Do I give him this information to him? There is risk in _not_ doing so. Because if I do _not_ give the cop this information, and it later turns out that the cop had RAS to detain me (again, see bank robber example above), then I could be charged and convicted of “Failure to disclose personal information,” _even though I was a completely innocent person when I was detained_. ([ORC 2921.29 (1)](https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-2921.29).) The only way I would not provide this information is if I were 100% sure the detainment was illegal and the cop did not have RAS. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2023, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3227 "2023-02-01T17:42:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > As an example, let’s say there’s a bank robbery, and the teller says the robber was a bald man in his 40s wearing a blue shirt. The cops drive around the bank and see _you_ walking on the sidewalk. By coincidence, you also happen to be a 40 year old bald man wearing a blue shirt. Or, say the suspect is a 5’ 10" man, and you are a 5’ 2" girl. > **[Police punch teen girl after mistaking her for wanted man](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/07/13/police-punch-teen-girl-after-mistaking-her-wanted-man/474909001/)** > > The clash involving Tatyana Hargrove is drawing national attention after the Bakersfield NAACP posted a video of Hargrove telling her tale. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > But the cop is not required to tell you. And that’s a problem. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Because if I do _not_ give the cop this information, and it later turns out that the cop had RAS to detain me (again, see bank robber example above), then I could be charged and convicted of “Failing to Identify,” _even though I was a completely innocent person when I was detained_. Once again, that’s actually a problem. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The only way I would not provide this information is if I were 100% sure the detainment was illegal and the cop did not have RAS. And even if you were, the cop can still order you to do so, and arrest you for failing to follow their orders. Basically, you just described a police state where the citizens have no rights. _And_ you described the current state of policing in the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=160) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=162)