# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 169
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3368 "2023-03-02T17:32:28Z")
I’m with [k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender) on this one. I love to bash Republicans and the police, but they did not kill her. They were absolute dicks and should all be fired, but they did not kill her. Cops were told she was faking. Hospital may not have used this term, but that was the clear meaning. Cops were told by people who know far more than them she was faking. The hospital not only kicked her out, but had her arrested, told the cops she was faking symptoms. _Everything that happened later was colored by this. Essentially, they told the cops to ignore her complaints._ They denied her treatment and kept others from treating her. I expect the lawsuit to be massive. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3369 "2023-03-02T17:40:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you saying that cops should think that their medical opinion is better than that of medical professionals? In this case, the facility discharged her – I am not sure whether they gave her a CBoH or advice/prescriptions, but they did call the police to complain that she was there. Why the hospital did that is unclear. Sounds to me like they were just being assholes, maybe thought the police were decent people who would treat her OK, or they just preferred to not have her die in their waiting room (that is always a bad look).        At any rate, the thugs had (what they interpreted to be) the opinion of medical professionals. They said she should leave (was, by implication, OK), so any problems she appeared to be having were all just an act.        So, yeah, the police behaved like dirtbags, SOP. But the hospital does not get off the hook, here: they ordered up the dirtbag battalion when there really was no need to. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3370 "2023-03-02T19:05:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > “We already assessed her, she’s fine.” …that isn’t how it would have worked. They couldn’t have “assessed her”. Because what the video shows is a clear _deterioration_ in her condition. At the start of the video her speech seems quite clear. But about a minute into the video, her speech is obviously both audibly and visually slurred. > **[Stroke - Symptoms and causes](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/stroke/symptoms-causes/syc-20350113)** > > Promptly spotting stroke symptoms leads to faster treatment and less damage to the brain. > [@Mayo Clinic](#): > > - **Trouble speaking and understanding what others are saying.** You may experience confusion, slur words or have difficulty understanding speech. > - **Paralysis or numbness of the face, arm or leg.** You may develop sudden numbness, weakness or paralysis in the face, arm or leg. > > … > > - **Trouble walking.** You may stumble or lose your balance. You may also have sudden dizziness or a loss of coordination. I’m seeing signs of all of those things. Things that weren’t happening at the start of the video. Things had _changed_. The hospital may have already assessed her. And at the time she may have been fine. But I don’t think that there would be a triage nurse on the planet who, after being informed by a police officer that a person who was speaking perfectly fine one minute but was now slurring their speech, struggling to breath, and couldn’t stand up, would respond with “We already assessed her, she’s fine.” And the thing is we will never ever be able to confirm how the hospital would have reacted here. Because the police didn’t even bother to contact them. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you saying that cops should think that their medical opinion is better than that of medical professionals? The cops had new information that _the medical professionals didn’t have_. So what I’m saying is that the cops should have shared that information with the hospital. Because: > [@Mayo](#): > > **Seek immediate medical attention** if you notice any signs or symptoms of a stroke, even if they seem to come and go or they disappear completely. Think “FAST” and do the following: > > - **Face.** Ask the person to smile. Does one side of the face droop? > - **Arms.** Ask the person to raise both arms. Does one arm drift downward? Or is one arm unable to rise? > - **Speech.** Ask the person to repeat a simple phrase. Is his or her speech slurred or strange? > - **Time.** If you observe any of these signs, call 911 or emergency medical help immediately. > > Call 911 or your local emergency number right away. Don’t wait to see if symptoms stop. **Every minute counts. The longer a stroke goes untreated, the greater the potential for brain damage and disability.** The police didn’t do any of these things. The signs were all there. They didn’t “think fast.” They didn’t notice the deterioration. Instead they berated her because they were missing their coffee and oatmeal. My mum had a stroke many years ago before she passed. The doctors said that the only thing that saved her was the fact that she went immediately to the A & E (she worked in the hospital, so fortunately it was only a few minutes walk) , and they started treatment right away. Early treatment makes all the difference. She was in their custody. She died on their watch. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If so, you must also think it should also go the other way, where a doctor says someone’s having a stroke, but the cop, in their medical opinion, doesn’t think they are? Why would I think this obviously stupid thing? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are really bad at actually reading what people say, aren’t you? You just want to yell and scream “bullshit” while ignoring what it actually _is_ that you are actually calling out. I call bullshit on bullshit. And the idea that “one of the cops was a brain surgeon and was able to operate in the back of the cruiser” was the only way to save Lisa Edwards life is just fundamentally absurd. You are excusing the cops in this situation. Lisa Edwards wasn’t fated to die here. It was the actions of the cops, who had her in custody at the time, who ignored the deterioration in her condition, and even kept her in the back of the police car while they conducted another traffic stop, that are at fault. They killed her. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sometimes you have some good points to make, but most of the time you are just a ball of incoherent rage, lashing out in anger, often against those who would align with you, if you weren’t pushing them away by looking for any excuse to be actively hostile to everyone around you. While I appreciate your concern for my well being and all, I’ll never be able to get over what you said to me last year. > [@Democrats should have codified Roe v. Wade into Law narrative](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-should-have-codified-roe-v-wade-into-law-narrative/967131/122): > > Yes, it does. By doing so, you are working alongside Fox and Pravda to dissillision voters, to make them think there is no point in coming out to vote, that both sides are the same. If your complaints are limited to this messageboard, then whatever, but given your passion about how the US conducts its affairs, I doubt that they are. Accusing me of working alongside Fox and Pravda to dissillision voters, imagining that I’m so _passionate_ about my internet ramblings on an obscure messageboard that you think that it’s likely I’m up to something else, was simultaneously the oddest and funniest things I’ve been accused of since I’ve been on the dope. I think that effectively accusing me of being a Russian disinformation bot (in Politics & Elections, no less) is a pretty good way of pushing away those who would ordinarily align with you. At least I’m open about my “incoherent rage.” You appear to be bottling it up, occasionally letting it slip in displays of passive aggressiveness. Does this actually do you any good? At all? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3371 "2023-03-02T19:28:08Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > but had her arrested, told the cops she was faking symptoms. …cite for either of these two things? The decision to arrest her was made clearly by the police officers. She tells them that she “shattered her ankle and had a stroke”. The police officer tell her to “get gone” and if she doesn’t, she’s going to jail. He says “you’re gonna have to roll this off the property.” When informed that the wheelchair belonged to the hospital, he came back with “well you’re gonna have to get up and figure out a way to get gone.” The police didn’t have to arrest her here. They had a number of options. But _they_ decided to make the arrest. And I can’t see anywhere where the hospital accused her of faking it. The police say on video “this is all an act. She has been discharged.” (Followed by the “THIS IS THE LORDS DAY” speech) But I haven’t seen anywhere where the _hospital_ accused her of faking it. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3372 "2023-03-02T20:50:54Z")
I thought this thread was about controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3373 "2023-03-02T21:47:36Z")
I think I see the problem here. You have trouble reading what people actually write, so you substitute your own fanciful imaginations in instead. I did not accuse you of being a Russian disinformation bot, I pointed out that your abject hatred of everything American where you attack Americans who agree with you ideologically for having the nerve to live in America, is not very helpful, at least not to progressives. Though it _is_ helpful to Republicans. I don’t think that you are helping the Republicans out of a motive to help them, I think you are just too stupid to realize that what you are doing is helping them. You don’t really have any agenda other than just spewing your hatred, and that you took it that I was suggesting that you did is pretty fucked up, to be honest. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > At least I’m open about my “incoherent rage.” That’s pretty much the only thing you are open about. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You appear to be bottling it up, occasionally letting it slip in displays of passive aggressiveness. No, I am willing to tell you to fuck right the fuck off with your bullshit and hate. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Does this actually do you any good? At all? It serves me better than your constant misrepresentations. Remember, this exchange started because you were angry that anyone would dare to put any blame on the hospital who discharged her. That’s stupid of you, like really fucking stupid. I’ll never understand what people like you get out of lying all the time. It must be fun, but I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3374 "2023-03-02T23:14:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I did not accuse you of being a Russian disinformation bot, I pointed out that your abject hatred of everything American where you attack Americans who agree with you ideologically for having the nerve to live in America, is not very helpful, at least not to progressives. > > Though it _is_ helpful to Republicans. > > I don’t think that you are helping the Republicans out of a motive to help them, I think you are just too stupid to realize that what you are doing is helping them. > > You don’t really have any agenda other than just spewing your hatred, and that you took it that I was suggesting that you did is pretty fucked up, to be honest. …for the sake of context, I’ll include the post you were replying too. > [@Democrats should have codified Roe v. Wade into Law narrative](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-should-have-codified-roe-v-wade-into-law-narrative/967131/106): > > …and you see this as a problem? > > I’m not talking about “me” here. > > I’m talking in general. Do you think that people should stop complaining about the Democrat leadership? Or is that something that you reserve just for me? > > **Because I’m seeing this in a lot of places, not just here. The sentiment that merely complaining about the leadership puts the election at risk. Is that something you feel is true?** > [@Democrats should have codified Roe v. Wade into Law narrative](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/democrats-should-have-codified-roe-v-wade-into-law-narrative/967131/122): > > Yes, it does. By doing so, you are working alongside Fox and Pravda to dissillision voters, to make them think there is no point in coming out to vote, that both sides are the same. If your complaints are limited to this messageboard, then whatever, but given your passion about how the US conducts its affairs, I doubt that they are. There is no _hate_ there. There is no “abject hatred of everything American” there. Not in that thread. Not even in this thread. It was a typical debate. Where I wasn’t “hating on America” but was endorsing what an American politician had said. Then you decided to drop that bomb. Your words, my words, they are all right there. You are just making stuff up. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s pretty much the only thing you are open about. Can you be open about why you appear to have an irrational hatred of me? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Remember, this exchange started because you were angry **that anyone would dare to put any blame on the hospital who discharged her.** That’s stupid of you, like really fucking stupid. Why would you lie about this? No seriously. Why? Its not as if people can’t simply scroll up and see that this isn’t true. For example: > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > he police didn’t kill her, and the hospitals didn’t kill her. > > Republicans killed her. Cheesesteak didn’t blame the hosptial. They didn’t _dare_ do that. Cheesesteak let them off the hook. Cheesesteak let the cops off the hook. She died because of the Republicans. It doesn’t matter that the police had her in custody, she was clearly displaying signs of a stroke, and that early intervention could at the very least prevent brain injury, and possibly save her life. Or perhaps stuff like this: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are correct that they made her last moments of life far worse than they should have been, **but she would have died regardless of what the cops did here.** I simply don’t accept that. She was not **fated** to die. You don’t have to believe me. There is plenty of evidence that tells us that if you intervene early enough you can give someone who is having a stroke at least a fighting chance. I’ve stated over and over again that yeah, the hospital deserves criticism, scrutiny and blame. The claim that " this exchange started because (I was) angry that anyone would dare to put any blame on the hospital who discharged her." is simply a lie. But two things: firstly, the extent of the liability of the hospital is unclear at the moment. We know that they discharged her and that they asked the police for assistance to deal with her. But that’s about _all_ we know. Because secondly, that isn’t the same for the police. Because we have video of the encounter. And we can see each and every opportunity the police had to change the outcome: _that they didn’t take._ This is a thread about controversial encounters between _law-enforcement_ and civilians. So when the police obviously fuck up, I think it’s okay that we focus on that. What we see on that video is not a hospital problem, although problems with the hospital exist. What we see on that video isn’t a Republican problem, even though problems with Republicans exist. What that video showed was a casual disregard to the life and the dignity of a person that deserved better. That _alone_ deserves a pitting. There is no actions that the police took in that video that are defensible. They had the opportunity to give her a fighting chance at life, but they didn’t take it. Because coffee and oatmeal. On the LORD’s day. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’ll never understand what people like you get out of lying all the time. It must be fun, but I don’t get it. You can ignore all the facts I’ve presented so far and continue to make this personal if you like. I’ll just keep throwing the facts right back at you. I can do that all day. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3375 "2023-03-02T23:27:21Z")
@Miller, would you please rename this thread “Controversial Encounters between k9befriender and Banquet Bear”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3376 "2023-03-02T23:48:24Z")
The thing is, sometimes assholes do show up to hospitals just to be abusive to hospital staff. And faking symptoms can be something that said assholes do. Given that this happens, what should hospitals do? When they get an asshole who’s abusing the staff and faking symptoms, if the systems were working as they should, the proper response would be to call the police and have the asshole arrested. And presumably, this has happened before. When the police arrived, that’s what they thought had happened. They thought that they had someone who wasn’t really having a stroke, and who was just faking it to be an asshole. They thought that because the people best-qualified to determine that told them so. They may or may not have said so explicitly, but they definitely said it implicitly, because that’s what it means when a hospital calls the police and asks them to arrest someone. And even with this starting assumption, and even with the cops’ much lesser degree of medical expertise, they still eventually came to doubt what the medical professionals had told them, and took her back to the hospital. That was the right decision, and the only reason it took them so long to come to that decision was because of the malpractice of the medical professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3377 "2023-03-03T00:01:22Z")
On a more positive note… [St. Louis to pay $5.2 million after mass arrests in 2017](https://apnews.com/article/st-louis-crime-lawsuits-6aef3e2dc8c3ba447f382a7706c8932e) > According to a proposed class action settlement filed last week, the city agreed to pay $4.91 million, or about $58,500 per person, to 84 people who were protesting in downtown St. Louis. > > The lawsuit claimed the protesters’ rights were violated when they were caught in a police “kettle” as officers surrounded and arrested everyone in the area. Three people who filed individual lawsuits settled from $85,000 each. Hopefully that will have stung enough to inspire them to rethink tactics in volatile situations. ie. What can we do to de-escalate rather than making things worse. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3378 "2023-03-03T02:03:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When the police arrived, that’s what they thought had happened. They thought that they had someone who wasn’t really having a stroke, and who was just faking it to be an asshole. …you are acting as if we can’t see the video. We _know_ what the police thought. That was pretty obvious when they were yelling: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “Well you’re gonna have to get up and figure out a way to get gone.” > > “Stop. That’s not gonna work. You’ve been medically cleared. WALK.” > > “Oh my fucking jesus lord mary goats.” > > “Now your’re starting to piss me off. Get up.” > > “This is all an act. She has been discharged.” > > “LISTEN TO ME!!! THIS IS THE LORD’S DAY. ALL I WANT TO DO IS GET ME SOME COFFEE AND SOME OATMEAL. I’M NOT GONNA DEAL WITH YOUR MESS THIS MORNING. WE’VE ALREADY SPENT TOO MUCH TIME ON YOU.” at her. But _none of that is reasonable_. That isn’t how one would expect police in a civilised nation to act. **Even if she was faking it**. She was sitting quietly in a wheelchair in a parking lot surrounded by at least 3 cops at the beginning of the encounter and _more_ when the wagon arrived. According to the records they spend 30 minutes trying to get her into the wagon and we only see a fraction of that. She keeps asking for her inhaler, and at first they say she doesn’t have one, but they eventually find it. She is in visible distress. Displaying obvious signs of a stroke. They leave her lying on the side of the road and start joking about how she’s going to get more charges now. “Disorderly, impeding a sidewalk. Anything they can think of.” Does any of that sound like reasonable behaviour to you? They end up not even putting her in the wagon. They throw her into the back of a patrol car instead. Then drive around, continuing to do cop stuff, where ultimately she (probably) dies in the back seat while the cop is on a traffic stop. Even if she was faking, the videos don’t show that she was causing a scene. She wasn’t yelling, or swearing, or doing anything much more than sitting in a wheelchair. She wasn’t dangerous, or impeding anyone. She was sitting in a big, giant empty carpark. > [@Chronos](#): > > They thought that because the people best-qualified to determine that told them so. When her condition deteriorated, (and we can see her condition deteriorate on the video) the police were in the best position to observe that happening, and the only people who were capable of intervening at that moment to try and save her life. Because in a sane world that’s just _part of their job_. > [@Chronos](#): > > because that’s what it means when a hospital calls the police and asks them to arrest someone. I’ve yet to see evidence that the hospital called the police and asked them to arrest her. We can hear the cops tell her to leave. When she said that she couldn’t because she had shattered her ankle and had a stroke, it was only _then_ that she was threatened with arrest. > [@Chronos](#): > > **they still eventually came to doubt what the medical professionals had told them,** and took her back to the hospital. That was the right decision, and the only reason it took them so long to come to that decision was because of the malpractice of the medical professionals. WE CAN SEE THE VIDEO. The caption says after around 20 minutes in the car, Lisa goes quiet. The officer doesn’t notice until later, during a stop of another driver. He _then_ calls for an ambulance. Then yells at her to sit up. He yells again, even louder to sit up. Then he grabs her by the hair and yanks her up, and the last we see of Lisa Edwards is the ultimate indignity: her face in the frame for just a split second, enough to make it obvious that she was probably dead, with the officer still insisting that it was all still an act. I don’t know what video you were watching, but they didn’t “come to doubt what the medical professionals had told them”. They thought she was faking even after she (probably) died. And it doesn’t matter that the cops had “much lesser degree of medical expertise.” Because the symptoms that anyone with basic first aid training are taught to look out for are really not that hard to pick up. The slurred speech at the one-minute mark of the second video was about the _clearest_ indication that something had changed in her condition. The stroke protocol here was clear. The police didn’t have to do anything more than get back in touch with the hospital to let them know that her condition had changed, she was slurring her speech, she was having difficulty breathing, she was unable to stand up even with assistance, these are all things that weren’t happening when she was discharged, but were happening now. She was under arrest. They were taking her into custody. The cops were the only people in any position to keep her alive. This isn’t on anyone else. The video makes that quite clear. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3379 "2023-03-03T02:50:26Z")
No, the cops were never in a position to keep her alive. The people who were, kicked her out. And yes, the cops saw her symptoms. But stroke symptoms can be faked, at least to non-experts. Which the cops thought she was doing, because the experts told her that she was healthy. The cops should have been more polite to her, because they should be the better people than the people they’re arresting. The fact that they weren’t is a problem. But impoliteness didn’t kill her. Getting kicked out of the hospital killed her. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3380 "2023-03-03T03:32:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, the cops were never in a position to keep her alive. …the cops had agency here. Of course they were in a position to change the outcome here. Forget about dying for a minute. She was at risk of permanent brain damage. They did nothing, absolutely _nothing_, to mitigate that risk. > [@Chronos](#): > > The people who were, kicked her out. I mean, what does this even mean? Were the cops physically incapable of using their judgement here? Simply unable to figure out that sometimes people are just fine when discharged, but could rapidly deteriorate without any notice shortly after? Are _you_ unable to figure that out? If a doctor said to you “that person is fine”, and an hour later after you left the doctors office that person _was_ fine, but then all of a sudden their arm fell off and started splurting blood everywhere, would you still _insist_ that the patient was fine? Because of what the doctor said an hour ago? Because sometimes people are fine. And the next minute they are not. That’s a thing that actually happens. And when you watch the video, that’s what we see happen. More details: > [@abc news](#): > > There is an indication in the video that officers may be aware Edwards could be in real distress. When they suggest putting her in the back of the van, the driver balks. > > “She’s saying she can’t breathe. If she falls … and dies, it’s on me,” says Transportation Officer Danny Dugan, who is not a sworn police officer. [https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tennessee-officers-conduct-probed-womans-death-97533393](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tennessee-officers-conduct-probed-womans-death-97533393) So the reason why she didn’t end up getting transported in the wagon was because the driver effectively refused too. Because if she died, then it would have been on him. The driver _knew_ she was in distress. He didn’t want to take her. So they threw her in the back of the car, on her back, in obvious distress. > [@Chronos](#): > > But stroke symptoms can be faked, at least to non-experts. Which the cops thought she was doing, because the experts told her that she was healthy. You’ve watched the video. As a non-expert, did you think she was faking? Because nothing about the way she was behaving looked fake to me. I’ve tried to fake the slurring she was doing with her speech, and I can’t do it. It looked real to me. Because it _was_ real. There is no evidence that the “experts told her she was healthy.” All we know was that the hospital deemed her well enough to be discharged. And she may well have fit the criteria at the time. But the slurred speech was the clearest indication that perhaps something had changed. And the police had a distinct advantage over most everyone else here, they were already at the fucking hospital. The _best_ people to determine if she was faking the slurred speech (when her speech was not slurred at the start of the video) were the “experts.” And the experts were right there. The police _chose_ not to seek expert advice. They decided, on their own, that she was faking. So they let her lie on the concrete for half-an-hour while they taunted her. Then threw her into the back of a police car where she probably died. That’s not on the hospital. That’s on the cops. > [@Chronos](#): > > The cops should have been more polite to her, because they should be the better people **than the people they’re arresting.** The person they were arresting was a 60 year old woman whose crime was being unable to get out of her wheelchair and walk out of the hospital on demand. The bar here is really fucking low. It really isn’t that hard to be better than this. > [@Chronos](#): > > But impoliteness didn’t kill her. Getting kicked out of the hospital killed her. She was alive when the police arrived. She had already been sitting there for an hour. Getting kicked out of the hospital _didn’t_ kill her. Failure to get “expert advice” when she developed new symptoms after they tried to drag her into wagon after she told them she couldn’t walk, taking away her inhaler when the cop decides she wasn’t using it properly, then ignoring her increasingly deteriorating state while they drove around doing traffic stops was what ultimately killed her. And that’s on the cops. Its all, right there, on the video. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3381 "2023-03-03T04:20:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you saying that cops should think that their medical opinion is better than that of medical professionals? If so, you must also think it should also go the other way, where a doctor says someone’s having a stroke, but the cop, in their medical opinion, doesn’t think they are? A close friend of mine had it happen to her 18 year old daughter. She was taken to the ER with the following symptoms [paraphrased quote from something her mom posted] “Entire left side of her body was numb, she could not walk by herself, she lost vision, she had a terrible headache on only one side of her head, and her blood pressure was abnormally high” She was discharged with a diagnosis of dehydration. After they left, she kept going downhill so they drove her to a different hospital where it was found she had two strokes. And this is hardly a unique thing. From [here](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/er_doctors_commonly_miss_more_strokes_among_women_minorities_and_younger_patients): > doctors overlook or discount the early signs of potentially disabling [strokes](http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/adult/physical_medicine_and_rehabilitation/stroke_85,P01184/) in tens of thousands of American each year ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3382 "2023-03-03T12:07:14Z")
Saving her would have required some combination of drugs that the police didn’t have, knowledge of how to use them that the police also didn’t have, and possibly brain surgery that the police couldn’t do. So no, they couldn’t save her. All they were even capable of doing was to take her back to the place they took her from, that had already decided not to do any of those things that they actually could have done. What’s the alternative, that the police refuse to take anyone away from a hospital if it looks, to medically-untrained people, like they have symptoms of something? In that case, what do you do about the people who really are being abusive to hospital staff? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3383 "2023-03-03T12:38:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Saving her would have required some combination of drugs that the police didn’t have, knowledge of how to use them that the police also didn’t have, and possibly brain surgery that the police couldn’t do. …they were at a _fucking hospital_. What part of that are you not understanding? I’m being serious here. Why would they need drugs? Why would they need to know how to use them? Why would they need to know how to do brain surgery? Are you just trolling now? She was sitting in a hospital wheelchair. They spent at least 30 minutes trying to get her into the wagon. Then a bit longer to get her into the patrol car. They had all the time in the world to do something different that didn’t involve brain surgery. > [@Chronos](#): > > So no, they couldn’t save her. Because they didn’t even try. > [@Chronos](#): > > All they were even capable of doing was to take her back to the place they took her from, that had already decided not to do any of those things that they actually could have done. They were literally still there. They didn’t have to take her back. Have you even watched the video? Read any of the stories? Or are you just making this up as you go? > [@Chronos](#): > > What’s the alternative, that the police refuse to take anyone away from a hospital if it looks, to medically-untrained people, like they have symptoms of something? What’s the alternative to this? > Are you telling me that you can watch that video and conclude that this was the best course of action, and that nothing further could be done? That this is the best we could ever expect from the police. How about following standard protocol when someone exhibits signs they are having a stroke. The things that everyone who does a first aid course would know, and that the cops (unless they were uniquely incompetent) must have had as part of their training. > **[F.A.S.T. | Stroke Foundation NZ](https://www.stroke.org.nz/fast)** > > Is it a stroke? > **[Stroke | Hato Hone St John](https://www.stjohn.org.nz/first-aid/first-aid-library/stroke/)** > > A stroke is when part of the brain is affected by an interruption to blood supply. Learn symptoms and first aid for strokes. > **[What to Do When Someone Is Having a Stroke](https://www.healthline.com/health/stroke-treatment-and-timing/dos-and-donts#What-not-to-do-when-someone-is-experiencing-a-stroke)** > > A stroke can be life-threatening, so it's important to act fast. If you think a loved one is having a stroke, here's what you should and shouldn't do. > **[Stroke - Symptoms](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stroke/symptoms/)** > > Read about the symptoms of a stroke. If you suspect a stroke, phone 999 immediately and ask for an ambulance. > **[Stroke Signs and Symptoms | cdc.gov](https://www.cdc.gov/stroke/signs_symptoms.htm)** > > Learn the signs and symptoms of stroke so you can act F.A.S.T. [https://www.firsthealth.org/lifestyle/news-events/2022/4/what-to-do-and-not-do-when-someone-is-having-a-stroke](https://www.firsthealth.org/lifestyle/news-events/2022/4/what-to-do-and-not-do-when-someone-is-having-a-stroke) > **[Stroke first aid | Signs and advice | British Red Cross](https://www.redcross.org.uk/first-aid/learn-first-aid/stroke)** > > Learn first aid for someone who may be having a stroke, a blockage to the blood supply around the brain so you can help in an emergency. If they think she is faking, then do FAST. Every single piece of advice says _you have to act quickly_. Leaving her to die in the back seat of the patrol car is the _opposite_ of acting quickly. And if _you_ don’t know any of this, if _you_ don’t know what the symptoms of a stroke are, and what to do if you think someone is having one, then read some of the links. You might just save a life. > [@Chronos](#): > > In that case, what do you do about the people who really are being abusive to hospital staff? Just to be clear here: there is zero evidence that Edwards was being abusive to hospital staff. So if this was another case, and someone who _was_ being abusive to hospital staff was having a stroke, you fall back to whatever procedures are in place to deal with an abusive patient that is needing life-saving care. You don’t just throw them into a cell and let them die. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3384 "2023-03-03T13:23:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Saving her would have required some combination of drugs that the police didn’t have, knowledge of how to use them that the police also didn’t have, and possibly brain surgery that the police couldn’t do. That’s just false. If the same thing happened to someone you know, that is, you thought they were having a medical emergency, the ER said they were fine but they’re acting like the woman in this video, and since you can’t administer drugs or preform surgery in the hospital parking lot, your only option is to let them die? Seriously? You wouldn’t go back in say “She’s going downhill fast, I need someone to take a look at her”? Or go to a different hospital? Or call 911? Now, I’m not suggesting that the police are supposed to be second guessing doctors, but doctors are hardly infallible and if a patient is released back to their care is clearly not okay, it’s on the cops to do something about it that doesn’t involve pulling them out by their hair (is that what I heard, I haven’t watched it) onto the sidewalk. It could be as simple as going back in or going elsewhere or asking dispatch to send EMTs. Again, I haven’t watched the video but it sounds to me like they got it in their heads that she was faking and it’s not that they _couldn’t_ do anything about it it’s that they were never going to do anything about it. > [@Chronos](#): > > What’s the alternative, that the police refuse to take anyone away from a hospital if it looks, to medically-untrained people, like they have symptoms of something? We’re not talking about symptoms of ‘something’ we’re talking about symptoms of a stoke (which, it sounds like, were on full display in the video). Surely police are trained in recognizing the symptoms of common life threatening acute illnesses. Heart attacks, strokes etc and even if they aren’t, they have a walkie talkie literally a few inches from their face with a direct connection to a trained dispatcher, as well as the FD which likely has EMTs or Paramedics on staff. > [@Chronos](#): > > In that case, what do you do about the people who really are being abusive to hospital staff? People are regularly restrained to beds for _exactly_ that reason. > [@Chronos](#): > > What’s the alternative, that the police refuse to take anyone away from a hospital if it looks, to medically-untrained people, like they have symptoms of something? Perhaps you should read my previous post just above yours. I personally know someone that had a stroke and was discharged regardless. Her mom didn’t say ‘oh well, I guess you’ll die’, she took her elsewhere. I don’t know if strokes cause more damage the longer they’re untreated, but that teenager ended up in and out of the hospital for a few years, had to do a ton of PT, lost part of her vision and it even cost her a fastpitch scholarship. Also, see the linked article explaining that this is hardly an uncommon thing to happen. Doctors makes mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3385 "2023-03-03T13:50:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …they were at a _fucking hospital_. > > What part of that are you not understanding? What specificially would you have the cops do in this situation? Do you think they can force the hospital to admit her? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3386 "2023-03-03T13:59:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What specificially would you have the cops do in this situation? …almost anything except what they actually did. > [@Telemark](#): > > Do you think they can force the hospital to admit her? I mean, most hospitals wouldn’t _need_ to be forced to admit a patient that was clearly exhibiting signs of having a stroke. Normally, merely telling them “hey, this patient is showing signs they are having a stroke” and that would be enough. And if it wasn’t? Joey\_P has some suggestions. But a person who went from speaking just fine to obviously slurring their speech is _exactly_ the sort of thing hospital triage would prioritise. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3387 "2023-03-03T14:26:35Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > This playing the national anthem before sporting events, I was in Vegas the last week of January, and went to a bar to watch the semi-finals for the NFL, to determine who would be in the Superbowl. The place was almost empty, with only one table full. The national anthem was playing just as I arrived, and the people at that table had all stood up for the anthem. In a bar. I’ve never seen such a thing here in Canada. We’ll stand if we’re actually at the stadium, but while chilling at the bar? No freaking way. I was a bit discombobulated, trying to figure out if I should wait for the end of the song to find a spot to sit… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=168) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=170)