# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 187
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3728 "2023-09-21T13:15:53Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > “just standing there” (he was actively resisting arrest). Um, he was actively resisting arrest BY just standing there, rather than putting his hands behind his back. He really was tased for **just standing there**. It’s important to point that out, because “resisting arrest” sounds like he might have been running, or kicking out, or otherwise creating something that vaguely resembled a dangerous situation. And the only threat of violence anywhere in the video is from the cops. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3729 "2023-09-21T13:18:15Z")
But some people prefer the style of the pit. I’m going to go link this- discussion there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3730 "2023-09-21T13:20:54Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > When they attempted to arrest him, he resisted. At that point they tazed him. In every police state, there are those who will glue their lips to the anus of power. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3731 "2023-09-21T13:34:54Z")
In every police state, facts are heresy. I never said the police behaved correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3732 "2023-09-21T13:45:40Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > My position is that the argument should be about the facts, not a fantasy alternate reality where the police walked up and tazed a guy who was just directing a band. The reality reality is the police wanted the band director to stop the band mid song. When the band director didn’t, they arrested him. **THAT IS THE CONTROVERSIAL ENCOUNTER PART OF THE WHOLE THING** Not the tasing, at least not specifically the tasing. It’s the part where a band director’s failure to stop the band from playing caused police to initiate an arrest. The tasing is just a consequence of police using violence to get their way. We accept, at least in principle, the idea that LEOs need to have the option of using violence in the performance of their duties, like when arresting people. However, when they arrest people for nothing, they are opening up that option of violence in the pursuit of nothing, and that is a serious issue. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3733 "2023-09-21T13:52:55Z")
C’mon people! It’s not like [he was robbing a 7-11 and the clerk beat the shit out of him](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clerk-beats-thief-with-stick-can-clerk-and-store-be-sued/988068) . . . which, apparently, is just fine with too many here. Just gotta remember that this isn’t the _Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians_ thread, it’s really the _All cops are bad cops thread_. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3734 "2023-09-21T14:11:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Quis custodiet ipsos custodes Ego non cognosco oram custodiam? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3735 "2023-09-21T14:41:52Z")
Ignosce. Ego non cognosco maritimam custodiam? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3736 "2023-09-21T15:34:29Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > My position is that the argument should be about the facts, not a fantasy alternate reality where the police walked up and tazed a guy who was just directing a band. Yeah, good luck with that. For all the vaunted “fighting ignorance” that is supposed to be going on, there is too often a recreational outrage bandwagon effect, where the rhetoric and made-up shit escalate beyond all recognition. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t about “the facts.” The actual facts always matter, even when the conclusion is the same. This discussion shouldn’t be this hard. What was the motivation of the police for stopping the band? Don’t make it up, what do you know, from original source material? What was the band leader doing when he was tased? Again, you have source material, don’t embroider, don’t maximize or minimize the facts. By all means, express your opinions, clearly labeled as such, to distinguish them from known facts. Not every incident supports a particular narrative 100%. And we, from the comfort of our computer chairs, don’t always know everything about every incident. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3737 "2023-09-21T15:44:15Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > This discussion shouldn’t be this hard. What was the motivation of the police for stopping the band? We don’t know; there doesn’t appear to be any good reason, but it really doesn’t matter either way. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What was the band leader doing when he was tased? Again, this is very simply answered. He wasn’t doing anything that threatened imminent harm to himself, the students, the police, or bystanders. Therefore, using potentially lethal force on him was inappropriate. Period, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3738 "2023-09-21T15:45:46Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What was the motivation of the police for stopping the band? That is not clear from the information currently available. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What was the band leader doing when he was tased? He was standing still, with his arms at his side, arguing with the police about being arrested, and refusing to comply with their order to put his hands behind his back to be cuffed. And I’ll give my opinion, too, copied from the other thread: > [@The players tried to leave the field, the marching band refused to yield, what details have been concealed, the way they tased this guy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/335): > > Anyway, here’s my scorecard, so far: > > 1. Police were wrong to issue an arbitrary order in an overly aggressive way. > 2. Mims was right to question it, but wrong to then resist arrest. He should have gone quietly to the station after the game. > 3. police were wrong to tase a non-violent man standing in front of them. > > Honestly, 1 & 2 are boring routine things. People fuck up all the time. Police are impatient to clear the field, director knows he was wronged and argues instead of meekly submitting to arrest. People are assholes. It’s common. > > But 3 is horribly dangerously wrong. 3 implies we are are living in a police state. 3 is the police violating the trust the people put in them when issuing those weapons. > > And that’s why i think the police should be clearly, strongly, and publicly punished for overstepping their appointed role. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3739 "2023-09-21T16:28:00Z")
Did you all hear of Baton Rouge’s Brave Cave? > **[Baton Rouge police are under investigation for 'brave cave' tactics](https://www.npr.org/2023/09/21/1200738308/baton-rouge-police-are-under-investigation-for-brave-cave-tactics)** > > Several lawsuits accuse the Baton Rouge police department of maintaining a so called "brave cave" in a warehouse that's been used for strip searches and beatings. The FBI is investigating. > **[Baton Rouge police accused of illegally strip-searching woman at 'BRAVE...](https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/crime_police/brpd-accused-of-illegal-strip-search-at-torture-warehouse/article_12e3ed8a-55d8-11ee-b7b2-efabdee02c71.html)** > > Weeks after a Baton Rouge police warehouse facility was permanently closed by city officials following allegations of abuse, more accusations have emerged — this time from a woman saying officers Basically, they had this room where they could beat, strip, or otherwise humiliate suspects. Luckily, all the good apples stepped up and put a stop to that. Hahaha! No, it was shut down when lots of abuse allegations were made and there were lawsuits, etc. ETA: Here’s an even better article. It wasn’t paywalled for me: > **[Louisiana police held detainees in ‘torture warehouse,’ lawsuits say](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/09/20/baton-rouge-police-brave-cave-lawsuits/)** > > Lawsuits accuse Baton Rouge police of beating and strip-searching detainees at an unmarked warehouse dubbed the “Brave Cave,” prompting an FBI investigation. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3740 "2023-09-21T18:07:05Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Basically, they had this room where they could beat, strip, or otherwise humiliate suspects. Luckily, all the good apples stepped up and put a stop to that. > > Hahaha! No, it was shut down when lots of abuse allegations were made and there were lawsuits, etc. Horrific. The city should fire the whole department and start over. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3741 "2023-09-21T18:08:49Z")
Fire? Jail. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3742 "2023-09-21T18:20:41Z")
Good call. I should have said: those responsible or involved (or had knowledge of it) should go to jail. Everyone else in the department, should be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3743 "2023-09-22T01:30:29Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > there is too often a recreational outrage bandwagon effect …the only “recreational outrage bandwagon” that I’m seeing in the other thread are those getting the vapours because the police weren’t given sufficient deference. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > where the rhetoric and made-up shit escalate beyond all recognition. Speaking of rhetoric and made-up shit that escalates beyond all recognition: how on earth did this situation end up with a tasing? Why did it escalate? Why are police doing crowd control at a high school football game? > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The actual facts always matter, If the “facts always matter” then we wouldn’t be having this discussion now. But tofor doesn’t care about the facts. And neither do you. You are engaging in “recreational outrage”, just like the rest of us here in the pit. We all working on the same set of facts. And on the one hand, have a group of people who think that the band director should have just complied, and while they think maybe tasing went a bit too far, it really wasn’t that big a deal. And on the other side, the group are pretty uniformly horrified, think this was a major over-reaction, and this incident encapsulates everything that this thread here in the bit documents over and over again. The police are out of control. We all are seeing the same thing. And you’ve chosen a narrative. Just like everyone else. You’ve picked a side. Just own that already. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Not every incident supports a particular narrative 100%. I’ll put the same question to you “Mr Facts”. Do you think he deserved the tasing? ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3744 "2023-09-22T11:56:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If the “facts always matter” then we wouldn’t be having this discussion now. But tofor doesn’t care about the facts. And neither do you. I’m baffled by this. All I have done is call people to account for misrepresenting what happened in the video. I have taken no position on the rightness or wrongness of any action done in the video by any party. And yet somehow this is “recreational outrage” and I “\ care about the facts”? I’m here to read what people have to say about this matter, but if the discussion is about whether the police should taze somebody who is just conducting a highschool band, that’s not interesting because _that didn’t happen_. If the discussion is about whether the police should taze somebody _who is continually nonviolently resisting arrest_ then that’s interesting, because that happened. If the discussion is about whether the police should arrest somebody _who didn’t immediately follow their instructions to stop directing a band, but then did and began to walk away_ that’s interesting, because that happened. The facts are all I do care about, Banquet\_Bear. Get the facts right, and you likely won’t hear from me in this thread at all. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3745 "2023-09-22T12:08:56Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > The facts are all I do care about, Banquet\_Bear. Get the facts right, and you likely won’t hear from me in this thread at all. People care about different aspects of the facts, and will state them differently as a result. This time, you accurately said > [@tofor](#): > > If the discussion is about whether the police should taze somebody _who is continually nonviolently resisting arrest_ then that’s interesting, because that happened. But previously, you didn’t include that “nonviolent” bit. You just used the word “resisting”, which has connotations of action. To you, what’s interesting is that the guy was resisting arrest. To many of us, what’s interesting is that the police tased a guy who was standing still, offering no threat to anyone. Honestly, i don’t care a lot what else was going on. The police tased a man who wasn’t a threat. Therefore, they were abusive. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3746 "2023-09-22T12:20:02Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > To many of us, what’s interesting is that the police tased a guy who was standing still, offering no threat to anyone. …in a confrontational situation that the police created for no reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3747 "2023-09-22T12:25:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But previously, you didn’t include that “nonviolent” bit. You just used the word “resisting”, which has connotations of action. > > To you, what’s interesting is that the guy was resisting arrest. To many of us, what’s interesting is that the police tased a guy who was standing still, offering no threat to anyone. I added the “nonviolently” bit because of your earlier posts on the subject, which were fair. Honestly, one thing I find more interesting that nobody seems to be taling about is that the police went to arrest him _after the band was done_. They got what they wanted, so why are they arresting him now? That actually isn’t caught on camera. The officer with the body cam who was telling him to stop playing and that Mims told to “Get out of my face” _wasn’t even there_ when they started trying to arrest him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=186) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=188)