# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 188
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3748 "2023-09-22T13:24:09Z")
On a broader level, facts are always curated. We don’t know if Mims had a wife waiting for him at home, because no one cares. We don’t know whether the officer who fired the taser was left handed or right handed, because it’s not relevant to this story. Those are both details that ARE sometimes relevant to this kind of story, and are sometimes presented. I was an officer of a student square dance club when a woman came to our executive committee meeting to ask us to post something along the lines of “our dances take place on land stolen from native Americans” on our website. I replied that i was uncomfortable making the website political. She replied, " it’s not political, it’s just a fact". I pointed out that we don’t publish the square root of 2 on our website either. We post facts that we think are relevant to club members and other people who might read the website. We curate the facts. And how we curate them tells other people things about us. > **more hijacky details** > > I’ve since read good arguments for posting that kind of indigenous land acknowledgement. But she didn’t present any at the time, instead she said something about such a notice being welcoming to indigenous students. Then someone noted that there aren’t many indigenous students at the school, but maybe we have a problem with being welcoming to Black students. We then got into a really awkward discussion about minorites and the club, and whether we should reach out in some way to Black students–i guess the really awkward part of that was that one of our two Black students was sitting there because I’d given her a ride, and she REALLY wanted no part of the conversation. I just kept hoping the conversation would end. > > Ironically, the land we dance on is landfill, and in some technical factual sense was never lived on by indigenous people. But that fact is less relevant than the political impact of posting a statement. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3749 "2023-09-22T13:55:03Z")
Meanwhile, [Coffee City, Texas](https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/coffee-city-police-18380508.php), a town with 249 residents has been enjoying the dedicated protection of 50, count 'em, 50 police officers. By protection, of course, I mean the traffic ticket protection racket – hauling in millions of bucks a year thanks to the hard-working efforts of the force, whose members include many fine upstanding cops whose exits from other departments had been, shall we say, somewhat less than honorable. But wait! The city has chosen to defund their police – completely. [Fired the whole force from the chief on down.](https://www.khou.com/article/news/investigations/coffee-city-police-chief-fired-department-deactivated/285-d8951489-1dd4-4920-9c0b-ef69d842ad52) It should be noted that the dismissal grew out of investigative reporting by KHOU-TV. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3750 "2023-09-22T15:30:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > We don’t know; there doesn’t appear to be any good reason, but it really doesn’t matter either way. The motivation for why police are doing something is _incredibly_ important. That motivation can be the difference between the police respecting the laws and the police violating rights. Think of things like probable cause, imminent danger, and such. Imagine two traffic stops that proceed exactly the same, and result in the discovery of drugs and the arrest of the driver. In one, there is documented evidence of the car running a traffic light. In the other the cop just thought the driver looked like he didn’t belong in the neighborhood. The reasons matter a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3751 "2023-09-22T15:32:24Z")
But in either traffic stop, if the police tased the guy when he wasn’t making any threat, the police would have been wrong. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3752 "2023-09-22T15:54:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > if the police tased the guy when he wasn’t making any threat, the police would have been wrong. Absolutely; the police can definitely use inappropriate force even when the arrest is justified. For a cite, just scroll up and find a story about it in this thread. My point is that the police’s motivation determines whether the arrest or contact is justified in the first place. That’s just a general principle, and not specific to the band incident. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3753 "2023-09-23T00:54:03Z")
I guess I haven’t read either thread closely enough. I’ve seen little? No? Indication that anyone thinks that he was tased while directing or because he was directing. Perhaps an overblown headline? I, for one, am still interested in the urgency to get this particular band to stop, when other civilians were still present. I am a bothered by the claims that he should have stopped for the “safety of the children” “the future of the children” yet no one seems bothered that the lights were cut with the “children” still in the stand carrying in many cases heavy instruments. It bothers me that this director is being burdened with the trauma and future fecklessness? of these kids. All because a bunch of cops didn’t get the respect they thought they deserved. He wasn’t tased because he wouldn’t stop directing, he was arrested because he didn’t just drop everything at their first barked order. Then tased because he was not happy about it And let them know it. HOW dare he question their orders? The whole thing was a stupid waste of time. And a violent end to what was probably an otherwise enjoyable evening. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3754 "2023-09-23T01:27:23Z")
Lately I’ve been watching a bunch of “First Amendment Audit” videos on YT. _ **Wow** _, what an eye opener. _Most_ of the cops who show up are tyrants. It’s not they do not know the law. It’s that they don’t care about the law, and the Constitution, which is _ **far** _ worse. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3755 "2023-09-23T02:19:33Z")
@tofor, you keep going on about “just the facts”, but one of the facts here is that he wasn’t resisting arrest. He was just standing there, and just standing there isn’t resisting arrest. Resisting requires taking actions, not just refraining from taking actions. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3756 "2023-09-23T11:51:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Resisting requires taking actions, not just refraining from taking actions. I’m not quite sure about this. Here’s the Alabama statute: **Universal Citation:** [AL Code § 13A-10-41 (2022)](https://law.justia.com/citations.html) **Section 13A-10-41** **Resisting arrest.** (a) A person commits the crime of resisting arrest if he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a peace officer from affecting a lawful arrest of himself or of another person. (b) Resisting arrest is a Class B misdemeanor. I think he could be rightfully charged with resisting arrest, if it’s found that they were lawfully arresting him, which is not at all clear. But, whether he can be charged with resisting arrest is a completely different question from the question of whether the use of force was reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3757 "2023-09-23T17:53:27Z")
My favorite was when one cop told an auditor “I don’t care about your First Amendment bullshit.” He said the quiet part out loud: the Constitution is an inconvenience to some cops. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3758 "2023-09-23T20:21:19Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > (a) A person commits the crime of resisting arrest if he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a peace officer from affecting a lawful arrest of himself or of another person. Geez, even the statute writers in Alabama are rubes. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3759 "2023-09-23T23:20:23Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > I’m baffled by this. All I have done is _call people to account_ for misrepresenting what happened in the video. …nobody here is “misrepresenting” what happened in the video. The video speaks for itself. > [@tofor](#): > > And yet somehow this is “recreational outrage” and I “\ care about the facts”? It’s as much “recreational outrage” as what everyone else here is doing. You are outraged that people aren’t accepting your narrative. And you have to let everyone here know it. > [@tofor](#): > > I’m here to read what people have to say about this matter, but if the discussion is about whether the police should taze somebody who is just conducting a highschool band, that’s not interesting because _that didn’t happen_. Well he _was_ tased. And he _was_ just conducting a highschool band. Those are both _facts_. People aren’t arguing that the sequence of events that _lead_ to the tasing “didn’t happen.” We are telling you that there are no reasons why that sequence of events had to happen _in the first place_. And even if it did, when we got to the point that we see in the video before the police officer deployed his taser, it was clear that Johnny Mims was doing nothing that justified that taser use. You are arguing against a strawman here. You are missing the context and the nuance from the posts other people have made. > [@tofor](#): > > If the discussion is about whether the police should taze somebody _who is continually nonviolently resisting arrest_ then that’s interesting, because that happened. About this “continually nonviolently resisting arrest” thing. America has got a law enforcement problem. It such a **big** problem, that this thread is on its second iteration. We are only having this discussion because Mins got tased. This only came to everyone’s attention because this incident resulted in the stupidest _possible_ conclusion. But how many times does this happen where the bandleader doesn’t get tased? Instead, they just fall into compliance with a stupid police order given for no good reason at a fricken highschool football game where the police have no good reason to be there at all? By focusing just “on the facts”, by making this about “continually nonviolently resisting arrest”, you miss the wider context. You miss the real problem here. That police in America are largely out-of-control. Over-funded. Little-to-no-oversight. Decentralized. Make-up-their-own-rules. The tasing should never have happened. But putting Mims into a position where they felt he had to "continually nonviolently resist arrest” is the issue. From the audio of the officer that used the taser: > [@](#): > > “We gotta fix this. You know, I don’t like this. We gotta fix this. We gotta come up with something,” the officer said as he walked Mims to the police car. “Right now, I care about them babies on that bus that just got left. I care about them babies that aren’t going to be able to trust the police just because of these situations.” > > “I know, but If you put me in the car … it’s just making it worse,” Mims said. > **[Officer who tased band leader worried incident would fuel mistrust in police,...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/body-cam-video-shows-aftermath-band-leaders-arrest/story?id=103384484)** > > New body camera video shows a conversation between Minor high School band director Johnny Mims and a Birmingham Police Department (BPD) officer who shocked him. If the officer wants to know how to “fix this”, if he is worried about “them babies on that bus that just got left”, if he is worried about people not trusting the police any more, then the only people that can fix this are the cops themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3760 "2023-09-25T17:03:12Z")
Both controversial AND evil **Pennsylvania trooper arrested for committing mistress to mental facility by ‘painting her as crazy’** [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ronald-davis-pennsylvania-trooper-arrested-for-committing-mistress-to-mental-facility-by-painting-her-as-crazy/ar-AA1he0Vk?ocid=windirect&cvid=71d77e77d8a949698189d480465f1038&ei=97#image=1](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ronald-davis-pennsylvania-trooper-arrested-for-committing-mistress-to-mental-facility-by-painting-her-as-crazy/ar-AA1he0Vk?ocid=windirect&cvid=71d77e77d8a949698189d480465f1038&ei=97#image=1) > The court documents stated that after her arrival, MF appeared to “genuinely lack understanding on why she is being restrained.” During the struggle, she allegedly suffered injuries to her forehead, torso, back, buttocks, forearms, knee, and lower body. > > The victim was involuntarily committed for five days before being released on August 26. Once cops saw an exchange of messages between the pair, they didn’t think there was cause to force her into treatment, police said. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3761 "2023-09-25T23:42:39Z")
I watched that video last night. He’s vile. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3762 "2023-09-26T04:11:17Z")
> [@](#): > > [Jay Nigiri](https://www.mcall.com/2023/09/25/pa-trooper-charged-ex-girlfriend/), an attorney for Davis, said that he was troubled by Davis being denied bail and had filed a motion to get him released on bail. > > “We are confident once all of the facts come to light, Mr. Davis committed no crime but was seeking to protect a troubled young woman who was in need of immediate medical attention,” he said in a phone interview Monday. Rule #1: Never speak ill of another cop ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3763 "2023-09-26T16:24:16Z")
> **[Off-duty Texas police officer shoots Black neighbor through closed door](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/26/texas-police-officer-shoots-black-neighbor)** > > There have been several recent incidents in the US in which people have been shot after approaching the wrong residence ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3764 "2023-09-26T20:56:48Z")
> **[Charges dismissed against Philadelphia officer in fatal traffic-stop shooting...](https://apnews.com/article/philadelphia-police-officer-murder-charge-fatal-shooting-c938e3c940ee5c1d598e0cf70c04a635)** > > Relatives of a man shot and killed by a Philadelphia police officer during a traffic stop for erratic driving are stunned and distraught by a judge's dismissal of all charges. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3765 "2023-09-26T21:04:11Z")
> Morris testified Tuesday that he saw the driver holding a knife with a black metal handle that could have looked like a gun. He said Irizarry started to raise it as Dial approached the car, which had stopped while going the wrong way on the one-way street. And had the window been rolled down, that may have meant something… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2023, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3766 "2023-09-27T06:25:36Z")
> **[Seattle cop put on leave after hurling anti-Asian, sexist slurs at neighbor](https://news.yahoo.com/seattle-cop-put-leave-hurling-224229303.html)** > > Officer Burton Hill allegedly called his neighbor a “dumb f\*cking ch\*nk” and a “stupid f\*cking c\*nt" Par for the course for the Seattle PD. They are just the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3767 "2023-10-02T21:48:21Z")
Not sure if this was covered in this thread, but I’m a bit surprised in the way the court ruled here. Cautiously pleased, but surprised. > **[Alabama Cops Who Arrested Mechanic for Not Giving Them His ID Denied...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/alabama-cops-arrested-mechanic-not-201013496.html)** > > "The police are free to ask questions, and the public is free to ignore them," wrote a federal judge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=187) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=189)