# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 190
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3788 "2023-10-17T17:12:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > qualified immunity A nifty little feature that allows the people who are supposed to protect your constitutional rights to violate those rights. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3789 "2023-10-17T19:12:58Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > Here the police just say “The time is 18:44 and you are under arrest”. The time is because you have the right to see a judge in under 24 hours. They mention the arresting time in France, too (I know from watching _French_ TV shows), but they also say that you are entitled to an attorney and (or?) a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3790 "2023-10-17T21:49:41Z")
Off-duty police officer shows up at the local middle school for a “trunk-or-treat” event, gets a wild hair up something, shouts “_you’ce all gonna die_” and starts shooting the place up. > **[St. Louis County police officer charged after shots fired at Kirkwood school...](https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/bob-mcculloch-matthew-statement-son-shooting-school-event-kirkwood/63-a855f9ea-212e-406d-8053-c45ea6cc5d7a)** > > A police officer and son of a former St. Louis County prosecutor told attendees they were "going to die" as he fired shots, according to court documents. Like a good and proper Imperial Stormtrooper, no one was hit. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3791 "2023-10-17T22:52:27Z")
> McCulloch “aggressively approached” several attendees and made statements such as “You are all going to die,” according to the documents. At one point, he threatened a woman whose husband then pushed him in the chest and shoved him to the ground. I will venture a guess and say that the subjects of his ire were black and\or Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3792 "2023-10-17T23:01:52Z")
Police Chief Kenneth Gregory called the officer’s actions “disappointing”. I guess he was pissed at his poor marksmanship. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3793 "2023-10-18T01:10:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Police Chief Kenneth Gregory called the officer’s actions “disappointing”. Had a non-cop done it, I am confident he would _not_ have said their actions were “disappointing.” It’s a brotherhood. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3794 "2023-10-18T05:03:16Z")
I have to imagine Matt’s friends and coworkers are saying “See, I’ve been telling you for years that guy is wound too tight, always pissed off about something”. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3795 "2023-10-18T11:51:50Z")
“He was a nice, quiet man. Never made a fuss (except with his gun).” ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3796 "2023-10-18T15:20:43Z")
I watched a YouTube video in which this issue came up. Long story short, the narrator was saying something to the effect that a court has ruled that cops not knowing the law wasn’t really relevant to the case in question in some way (I don’t remember the specifics), and a justice wrote something to the effect that expecting cops to be as educated on the law as lawyers is ambitious at best, foolhardy at worst. Or something. If I had any authority over any police force, the officers in my employ would be required to take annual training on a few relevant laws (like when a person is not required to ID, the difference between obstruction and lawful non-compliance, etc.) and the Constitution, with particular attention paid to Amendments One, Four, and Five. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3797 "2023-10-18T15:32:20Z")
A man spent 16 years in jail for a crime he didn’t commit. Three years after he was released, he was stopped by Georgia police on the way home from his mother’s. It appears there was a struggle and the officers shot and killed him. It may turn out that the officers’ actions were justified. But it is a tragic story in any event. > **[A wrongfully convicted man who was exonerated after 16 years is shot and...](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/us/leonard-allan-cure-killed-georgia-traffic-stop/index.html)** > > A Florida man who was exonerated after serving more than 16 years for a crime he did not commit was shot and killed by a deputy in Georgia during a traffic stop, according to a news release from the Georgia Bureau of Investigations. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3798 "2023-10-18T16:09:16Z")
I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure how effective it would be. Over the past decade I’ve probably watched at least a couple thousand LEO-encounter videos on YT, many of which were posted by First Amendment Auditors. On the one hand I understand it would be incorrect to form a generalized opinion based on the videos, since only the “bad” encounters tend to be posted (thus leading to selection bias). On the other hand, I have observed (firsthand) quite a few cops behaving in the exact same manner. It’s obviously a widespread and systemic problem, and I’m not sure what the best solution is. I’d like to think that better training would fix the problem, but I don’t think it would in reality. I’m convinced many of the cops who infringe on individual rights _know_ what they’re doing is wrong and illegal. They simply don’t care that it’s wrong and illegal. The only solution is swift and harsh penalties for LEOs who act outside the law. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3799 "2023-10-18T16:22:27Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The only solution is swift and harsh penalties for LEOs who act outside the law That would be a start, but I think the only real solution is to completely change the attitude of the police. They need to feel that upholding these rights and freedoms are the whole purpose of their jobs. The rights and freedoms don’t exist just to make their job harder, but rather to give their job meaning. To the point where it is unthinkable for a cop to, for example, search a car without a warrant. I have no idea how to achieve that, or if it is even possible. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3800 "2023-10-18T16:53:17Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > They need to feel that upholding these rights and freedoms are the whole purpose of their jobs. That’s not how other professions enforce the law. They enforce the laws of their profession by cracking down on those who don’t respect the laws governing the profession. We don’t rely on business and restaurants _caring_ about the welfare of their customers, we tell them that they will run an honest business and serve safe food products under penalty of law. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3801 "2023-10-18T17:17:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s not how other professions enforce the law. They enforce the laws of their profession by cracking down on those who don’t respect the laws governing the profession. We don’t rely on business and restaurants _caring_ about the welfare of their customers, we tell them that they will run an honest business and serve safe food products under penalty of law. Yeah, people keep acting as if we need to hire public spirited folks as cops instead of venal bullies and we’d be golden. No, those public spirited folks would become corrupt bullies because they are in an environment of impunity. Effectively they are above the law personally. When they screw up the community pays (factually guilty criminals get off or the municipality pays out damages) and the cop just goes on their merry way. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3802 "2023-10-18T18:04:04Z")
Exactly. In most of the police encounter videos the victim will tell the LEO, “I _ **will** _ be filing a complaint against you.” The LEO will laugh and say, “Sure, that’s fine.” The LEO couldn’t care less if a complaint is filed against them. (Hint: the police investigate _themselves_. And will conclude there was “No wrong doing.”) And/or the victim will say, “If you arrest me, I _ **will** _ be filing a lawsuit against you.” The LEO will laugh and say, “Sure, that’s fine.” The LEO couldn’t care less if a lawsuit is filed against them. (It’s because of qualified immunity.) This needs to change. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3803 "2023-10-18T20:12:34Z")
I have seen a few videos on youtube where it stated that the judge ruled that the officer in question was NOT covered by qualified immunity because his actions were outside of yadyadyada. A few. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3804 "2023-10-18T20:47:03Z")
[Florida police officer charged with sexual battery and false imprisonment of tourist](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/florida-police-officer-charged-with-sexual-battery-and-false-imprisonment-of-tourist/ar-AA1isqTf?ocid=windirect&cvid=7e30b453ba904aa79de89c6b49eb689a&ei=73) > Gandy asked anyone else who might have had similar experiences to [reach out to the department] The [Florida Department of Law Enforcement] has also been notified in case their support is needed if other people come forward with allegations against Paloma. Oh yeah. I will bet there will be others. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3805 "2023-10-19T09:00:36Z")
> **[Met rammed boy, 13, playing with water pistol off bike and pointed guns at him](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/19/met-rammed-boy-13-playing-with-water-pistol-off-bike-and-pointed-guns-at-him)** > > Force apologised for incident where boy was handcuffed and which his mother said left him broken Surprise surprise, American cops don’t have a monopoly on being racist power-tripping assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3806 "2023-10-19T12:54:33Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > A man spent 16 years in jail for a crime he didn’t commit. Three years after he was released, he was stopped by Georgia police on the way home from his mother’s. It appears there was a struggle and the officers shot and killed him. It may turn out that the officers’ actions were justified. But it is a tragic story in any event. > > [https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/us/leonard-allan-cure-killed-georgia-traffic-stop/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17/us/leonard-allan-cure-killed-georgia-traffic-stop/index.html) Unedited dash cam footage of the incident, including the shot, can be viewed here: **[YouTube link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGNIAozOIok)**. (no gore, but you’ll see a guy get shot) After observing Cure speeding, the officer pulls him over and orders him out of the car in a loud voice, but no harsh language. Cure’s first reply is “I ain’t doin’ shit”, and it goes downhill from there. Cure is younger, bigger, and stronger, and the officer is alone. After a minute of hostile non-compliance and arguing in circles, the officer uses his taser. the taser doesn’t seem to do much, and when Cure turns and starts pushing the officer out into traffic, the officer has to go hands-on. but he’s outmatched by Cure. Cure’s language and actions convey aggressive intent; there’s even a moment at 3:53 when he’s briefly free of the officer’s grasp, but steps back into the fight with his hands on the officer’s head and neck, and is in the process of folding the officers skull backward against his spine; this is the point where the officer takes out his gun and fires a single shot into Cure’s abdomen. I think you could maybe blame a shitty justice system that unjustly imprisoned Cure for 16 years and made him wary of any subsequent police contact. But I don’t think that officer deserves blame for defending himself in this incident. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3807 "2023-10-19T14:42:58Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I think you could maybe blame a shitty justice system that unjustly imprisoned Cure for 16 years and made him wary of any subsequent police contact. But I don’t think that officer deserves blame for defending himself in this incident. Very well-said. I think sometimes those of us who support police accountability come off as if we believe a cop can do no right and a victim of police violence can do no wrong. Obviously that’s not always true, and in this case, it certainly seems like the officer who shot Cure was in the right. Still, a tragic end to a tragic story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=189) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=191)