# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 193
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3848 "2023-11-10T16:21:24Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > The insurance companies would insist on putting in clauses along the lines of “we ain’t paying jack if the actions were performed not in the line of duty, if against department rules, or if while committing a crime.” (hopefully committing a crime is against department rules 😉 ) Wouldn’t this lead to a terrible outcome for the victims of bad police officers? I.e. the insurance company claims there is no coverage for the officer’s brutality, and so they don’t have to make payment to the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3849 "2023-11-10T17:22:05Z")
BTW - I’m not (necessarily) advocating this position - I’m looking at it and trying to suss out the eventual consequences, too. OK, and what happens today when John Q. Public is crossing the street and is clipped by someone who just robbed a liquor store? Mr. Public goes into the hospital, pays his deductible, coinsurance, etc. IF Mr. Robber is caught and has some assets, JQP sues and can _possibly_ recover. Not exactly a good outcome for the victim. What happens if a LEO gets distracted by his computer in the car and clips JQP? Mr. Public goes into the hospital, pays his deductible, coinsurance, etc. His insurance sues the PD; their insurance reimburses JQP’s insurance; JQP still has to file (in effect, sue) the PD to get deductible/COINS covered; must absolutely sue to get pain and suffering. What happens if an off-duty LEO gets distracted by his phone? Same scenario, but absolutely must sue to cover deduct/coins. Now, what happens when LEO stops to harass JQP because he fits a profile and ends up slamming him against the wall and giving him a concussion? Today, JQP sues police department; PD insurance brokers a deal or the city gets sued directly; department insurance goes up and possible payout from the city; citizens pay more; LEO may or may not have any negative repercussions for his actions. In our hypothetical situation, PD insurance may still be on the hook for medical costs, but any pain and suffering comes from the LEO and his insurance. If his insurance doesn’t cover it, LEO is on the hook for any amount - there’s a definite penalty to the responsible party, but there are no repercussions to the taxpayers. THE REAL PROBLEM is that asshat LEO possibly has no real repercussions in today’s scenario. I think everyone here agrees that there needs to be more accountability and ability to get rid of bad cops. At least in the personal insurance scenario, he may still have a job, but is getting some kind of penalty for being an ass. Yeah, I’m re-evaluating the “we ain’t paying jack” clauses, but how about this: departmental insurance says “we ain’t paying jack if…” and personal insurance is set up as “covers any of the questionable things”. So, in my last scenario, city / taxpayers pay nothing; LEO insurance pays, but jacks up LEO’s rates. In that case, I wouldn’t even mind if the PD picked up the BASE COST for each LEO’s personal insurance, but if an individual’s rates go up because of questionable actions, it comes out of his paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3850 "2023-11-10T18:09:52Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Yeah, I’m re-evaluating the “we ain’t paying jack” clauses, but how about this: departmental insurance says “we ain’t paying jack if…” and personal insurance is set up as “covers any of the questionable things”. So, in my last scenario, city / taxpayers pay nothing; LEO insurance pays, but jacks up LEO’s rates. In that case, I wouldn’t even mind if the PD picked up the BASE COST for each LEO’s personal insurance, but if an individual’s rates go up because of questionable actions, it comes out of his paycheck. I don’t think there is an easy way to separate department responsibility from officer responsibility. Sure there are instances when an officer goes rouge with no warning, but often there are plenty of warning signs about a bad officer that departments voluntarily or negligently miss. (“Oh, I know that Officer Jerkoff has had 22 citizen complaints for excessive force this year, but I can’t believe he tased that guy to death.”) I don’t know that it is possible to hold that type of mismanagement responsible without it costing the taxpayer money. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3851 "2023-11-10T18:11:42Z")
Yeah, I get depressed, too, if I think about this crap too long. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3852 "2023-11-10T18:14:00Z")
Agreed. It’s hard not to see it as a helpless situation. Especially when the overwhelming percentage of people don’t even see there being a problem. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3853 "2023-11-10T18:52:32Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > an officer goes rouge I think most of them already support Republiopaths. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3854 "2023-11-10T19:08:30Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Also, in this case, the insurance company would almost be acting like a PD oversight/watchdog group. This has sort of been done before. Underwriters Laboratories (UL) got its [start](https://www.ul.com/about/history) when insurers got tired of shelling out money for fires started by inept wiring and electric appliances and components. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3855 "2023-11-10T19:46:32Z")
How does it work with physicians and malpractice insurance? That is something I’m barely familiar with, other than the typical calls of it raising health care costs. Could a similar paradigm be used for police officers? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3856 "2023-11-16T23:25:01Z")
So, this cop hit a pedestrian with his car, didn’t put it in his report and when the DA found out about it, he said “he was traveling less than 5 mph (8 kph) and the man ran directly in front of his squad car”. The dash cam video shows he was going faster than 5mph, the man did not run in front of his car\* and in fact the cop drove over the sidewalk to hit him in someone’s front yard. \*I mean, technically he did, but it’s not like he darted out from between parked cars or anything. This isn’t the first time he’s been in trouble with the department. And his punishment? A $500 fine. > **[Green Bay police officer Matthew Knutson to resign for striking person with...](https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/crime/2023/11/16/green-bay-police-officer-matthew-knutson-to-resign/71607528007/)** > > Knutson was convicted on Oct. 30 in Brown County Circuit Court after pleading no contest to misdemeanor attempted misconduct. Should be cued up, but skip to 7:30 to cut to the chase, so to speak. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/IzNIygJp0n8/maxresdefault.jpg "Police officer hits suspect with vehicle; Officer Matthew Knutson under investigation - Dash Cam") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNIygJp0n8&t=448) ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3857 "2023-11-17T14:48:59Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > And his punishment? A $500 fine. How is that not attempted murder? Hitting someone with your car is misdemeanor attempted misconduct? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3858 "2023-11-17T16:42:01Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > How is that not attempted murder? Forget it Jake. It’s Policetown. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3859 "2023-11-17T18:46:36Z")
You saying that if I ran over a police with my car I wouldn’t also be charged with “attempted misconduct”? I’m shocked! I tell you, shocked!! ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3860 "2023-11-17T19:49:29Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Cops march into an Applebees and beat up a man holding a child. Another update, the officers have been disciplined. One was suspended for four days because it was fine that he hit the guy, but the department felt he hit him too many times. The other cop was suspended for 10 days because he didn’t clean the pepper spray off the guy that had nothing to do with this. And it’s worth reiterating that this guy was literally just sitting in an Applebee’s, eating while Black. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the Black Person the cops were looking for. > **[Kenosha Applebee's arrest; officers suspended, force deemed justified](https://www.fox6now.com/news/kenosha-applebees-arrest-community-briefing-use-force)** > > After a review by the Kenosha Police Department and West Allis Police Department, officials identified violations by two officers, a news release says. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3861 "2023-11-17T20:03:38Z")
Oh boy, Kenosha, where have I heard of that town before? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3862 "2023-11-17T20:30:11Z")
Kyle Rittenhouse ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3863 "2023-11-18T03:12:32Z")
Police visit a woman who’s afraid of her caregiver. Police compliment the caregiver on his guns and depart - and a few hours later he kills her > **[Rio Rancho woman killed after police respond to her home](https://www.koat.com/article/rio-rancho-woman-killed-hours-after-police-response/45841340#)** > > "I said you're fine until I kill you," her caretaker said with Rio Rancho officers present in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3864 "2023-11-18T13:24:12Z")
Body cam footage in this one. They beat up someone unrelated to the case and it was deemed to be ‘justified’, then they wonder why people, specifically black people, run from them even when they did nothing wrong. > **[Kenosha Applebee's arrest; policy violations by 2 officers: officials](https://www.fox6now.com/news/kenosha-applebees-arrest-community-briefing-use-force)** > > After a review by the Kenosha Police Department and West Allis Police Department, officials identified violations by two officers, a news release says. I think this is a good time to repost this clip from Trevor Noah discussing Stop and Frisk and why it causes people that run from the cops when they did nothing wrong other than running from the cops. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hVzWqGAUFeI/maxresdefault.jpg "Bloomberg and The Legacy of Stop-and-Frisk - Between the Scenes | The Daily Show") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVzWqGAUFeI) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3865 "2023-11-18T13:25:29Z")
I envision a future where we can fix typos in posts that have youtube clips in them. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3866 "2023-11-18T21:26:12Z")
In a controversial non-encounter, group of [about 20 people are marching](https://www.channel3000.com/news/sen-tammy-baldwin-uw-chancellor-condemn-neo-nazi-group-marching-in-downtown-madison/article_79b8092a-864c-11ee-ae3f-9f87c1bae118.html) in downtown Madison WI, displaying swastikas and other RW symbology. > [@](#): > > The Madison Police Department does not support hateful rhetoric," officials said in a Facebook post. “The department has an obligation to protect First Amendment rights of all.” Police said that the group has not displayed any weapons, but multiple callers have dialed 911 to report the group. As long as they are White and not protesting the Police, their 1A rights must be protected. If they were black or those damn lefties, we would be right down there in confrontation gear to stop the riot. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/3867 "2023-11-25T03:31:55Z")
Derek Chauvin [has been stabbed in the Tucson Federal Corrections Institution](https://apnews.com/article/derek-chauvin-george-floyd-prison-stabbing-f24cde6aa28877d034530c2dc40ef7ea) where he is currently being held. This after SCotUS refused to hear his appeal (i.e., he ain’t gettin’ out).        Apparently he is also attempting to get his federal guilty plea pulled back, claiming there is new evidence that he was not responsible for George Floyd’s death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=192) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=194)