# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/482 "2020-09-26T03:49:57Z")
Yes to both of your questions. But no one was talking about this. All of it was on whether the cops whose bullets killed Taylor should be indicted. > [@eschereal](#): > > When I [look at the twitter video](https://twitter.com/itsjosephryan/status/1309046593031733248), it does not look to me like the officer was “on foot”. I suffered from the same illusion the first time I saw it. I have to think it would be fatal otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/483 "2020-09-26T15:50:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes to both of your questions. But no one was talking about this. All of it was on whether the cops whose bullets killed Taylor should be indicted. So the question is ‘should the two people who shot a woman in her bed while she was sleeping be charged with anything, or is it OK to shoot people in their beds as long as someone tells you to burst into their house’? Yes, the people who murdered a woman in her bed while she was asleep should definitely be prosecuted. Other people up the chain should as well, following the same logic as conspiracy charges and/or felony-murder laws, but the actual thugs who pulled the trigger are definitely on the list of who should be indicted. If a mafia boss orders one of his thugs to kill someone, no one argues that the mafia thug was ‘just following orders’ (the refrain of the good Nazis) and that charging the ‘just following orders’ thug for actually pulling the trigger. Even though the poor mafia enforcer would lose his job if he turned down the order! If the boss instead orders his thugs to go to someone’s house and rough them up, and the thugs panic and shoot someone in bed multiple times, again no one argues that the thugs shooting people should be able to get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/484 "2020-09-26T17:40:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes to both of your questions. But no one was talking about this. All of it was on whether the cops whose bullets killed Taylor should be indicted. I _do_ think that the cops who murdered a woman while she was sleeping in bed should be held accountable for their actions. But, I also think that others who put them in that position should be held to as much, or more account. Too many people look at this, and not only do they lack any empathy for a person who was literally minding their own business, could not have possibly been less threatening than a person sleeping in their own bed, but they also are pretty sure that it will never happen to them, so they just don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/485 "2020-09-26T23:02:58Z")
I have said consistently that it was tragic and never should have happened, and that the $12 million civil award was justified. I have also said that the drug war policies that lead to this kind of thing should be ended. But what those two cops did was fully legal at the time they did it. We have to reform laws and change policies moving forward, and pay civil damages to the family, not use ex post facto approaches to punish people who were acting legally at the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/486 "2020-09-26T23:17:37Z")
It’s only legal because these particular prosecutors decided not to prosecute. They easily could have charged them with something like reckless endangerment, manslaughter, etc. They shot many times without knowing who or what they were shooting at, putting innocent people (like Taylor) at risk. If a civilian had done it they surely would have prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/487 "2020-09-27T01:22:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If a civilian had done it they surely would have prosecuted. A nonsensical statement. A civilian would not be executing a warrant signed by a judge. I have not seen many legal experts endorsing your view. Even those who lean pretty far left on these issues like to use the phrase “lawful but awful” to describe what these cops did. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/488 "2020-09-27T02:39:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But what those two cops did was fully legal at the time they did it. Shooting blindly through walls and doors without being sure of your target is criminally negligent, even if you’re being shot at. It’s little better than shooting blindly into a crowd because someone in the crowd is shooting at you. I guarantee you Kentucky has some sort of statute criminalizing negligence causing death. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/489 "2020-09-27T02:47:35Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Shooting blindly through walls and doors without being sure of your target is criminally negligent, even if you’re being shot at. Are you sure that’s what those two cops did? Remember, there was a third cop who did get indicted for a felony for doing what you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/490 "2020-09-27T02:57:53Z")
I’d be happy to let a jury decide. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/491 "2020-09-27T03:49:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But what those two cops did was fully legal at the time they did it. That is the problem; that is what the protests are about. There should not be such a disconnect between “wrong” and “illegal”. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/492 "2020-09-27T04:27:37Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > > [@SlackerInc](#): > > > > For those incensed that those two cops were not charged with a crime for killing Breonna Taylor, what crime exactly do you think they should have been charged with? Can you cite the statute? Or articulate a legal/ethical principle? Can you say precisely what they should have done differently? > > The legal principle is that jackbooted thugs engaging in summary executions of people who are NOT EVEN AWAKE is straight up murder. In my younger, more naive days I thought that people generally agreed that murdering people in their sleep was not OK, but apparently it’s not a universal concept and some people think that murdering people in their sleep is open to debate. There’s a misconception that I’d like to clear up. You (and others) have said that Taylor was murdered in her sleep. She was actually shot, and died, in her hallway. While I’m on the side of holding the cops accountable, let’s not make it sound like they strolled into her bedroom and killed her while she was laying there. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/493 "2020-09-27T06:12:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are you sure that’s what those two cops did? Remember, there was a third cop who did get indicted for a felony for doing what you describe. Wait, now you’re attempting to argue that they could SEE Breonna Taylor and her boyfriend, and somehow managed to completely miss the guy who fired a single shot while striking an unarmed woman six times, and you think that absolves them? Since you ignored it the first time, it’s clear from the 911 call (who the hell calls 911 when there are cops literally on site?) that Kenneth Walker had no idea who busted into the apartment and murdered his girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/494 "2020-09-27T08:09:11Z")
Walker said he heard them knocking; a neighbor gave sworn testimony that he heard them yell “Police!” I do find it curious that so many people on the left, who favor stronger gun control, see no issue with Walker shooting first before anyone had shot at him. This is never even mentioned. (People on the right don’t mention it either, presumably because they favor the idea that you can pop off rounds at someone coming through your door.) Isn’t this a clear problem with people having guns and shooting before being shot at? I don’t own any guns, so this would not be an issue if police were coming through my door (which has happened to me before, also as part of the bullshit “war on drugs” that needs to end ASAP). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/495 "2020-09-27T08:14:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …a neighbor gave sworn testimony that he heard them yell “Police!” 1. How many times was that neighbor questioned before he said this? 2. How many neighbors said they didn’t hear the police yell anything? 3. Did the Grand Jury hear the testimony from those that claimed nothing was yelled?" ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/496 "2020-09-27T08:19:19Z")
Interesting idea, that people not hearing something from however far away should override someone who did hear it. I didn’t hear it either, and there are billions more like me! Walker himself said he heard knocking (although I bet he would like to go take that back if he could). I don’t find it that plausible that they were knocking but not announcing themselves as police, especially when there is a neighbor who gave sworn testimony that they did so. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/497 "2020-09-27T08:29:11Z")
Relevant much more to Kenosha than Louisville, this is an excellent illustration of why cops in this gun-crazy country have to constantly be paranoid that someone who is resisting arrest might shoot them. Even if it’s someone they have been grappling with, and have already pepper-sprayed, who seems to be unarmed, and is wearing only a T-shirt and shorts and acting like a crybaby. > **[\[Disturbing\] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect...](https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3137192)** > > \[Disturbing\] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect discussion on the TexAgs Politics forum. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/498 "2020-09-27T08:41:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Interesting idea, that people not hearing something from however far away should override someone who did hear it. That is an interesting idea you are trying to plant in our minds, that he was close and the other 12 witnesses were farther away. Got anything to back that up? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/499 "2020-09-27T08:44:29Z")
I didn’t say that. I’m only saying that hearing something is a stronger claim than not hearing something. Again, Walker admitted he heard knocking. In what universe do the police knock but refrain from saying “police”? That’s just habitually what they do. It’s possible they didn’t, but given that a witness heard them say it, it strikes me as unlikely. And the burden of proof is, as it should be, on those who claim they did not say it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/500 "2020-09-27T08:47:35Z")
There would have been _two_ witnesses but, you know, things happened. How many times was that witness questioned by the police before finally giving that statement, and did the Grand Jury hear from the other witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/501 "2020-09-27T09:04:21Z")
Burden. Of. Proof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=26)