# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/502 "2020-09-27T09:08:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Burden. Of. Proof Let. Us. Get. A. Little. Look. At. It. Before. Committing. To. Your. “Proof”. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/503 "2020-09-27T09:38:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I didn’t say that. I’m only saying that hearing something is a stronger claim than not hearing something. Again, Walker admitted he heard knocking. In what universe do the police knock but refrain from saying “police”? That’s just habitually what they do. It’s possible they didn’t, but given that a witness heard them say it, it strikes me as unlikely. And the burden of proof is, as it should be, on those who claim they did not say it. How do you prove that negative? How do you prove that someone _didn’t_ say something? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/504 "2020-09-27T12:06:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > A civilian would not be executing a warrant signed by a judge. No, but civilians do things at the direction of others all the time. If those things turn out to be illegal or dangerous, they don’t get to fall back on “I was following orders.” to justify it. The only way that would be an option is if it was part of a plea deal to levy charges on the higher ups. But with a case like this, all the actors are part of the Criminal Justice In Crowd. They all screwed the pooch, and they get to decide “this is how the world works, so sorry” while protecting them and their own from consequences. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/505 "2020-09-27T14:07:46Z")
There seems to be a culture of lying and cover-up that exists in law enforcement that is almost normalized. I think this is one reason why people want to do away with qualified immunity. I saw a tweet from a nurse or healthcare worker basically pointing out that if she goes to the wrong patient’s room and administers high doses of the wrong medication, she would potentially face criminal charges - so what’s the difference between her and a cop who fires at the wrong ‘suspect’ and kills him or her? A good analogy, I think. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/506 "2020-09-27T14:27:17Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I’d be happy to let a jury decide. And who will be presenting the case against them? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/507 "2020-09-27T15:04:35Z")
While it does matter if the police were actually knocking or just trying to break down the door, and it matters if the police attempted to identify themselves, even if they did all that, based on Kenneth Walkers [testimony](https://www.wlky.com/article/hear-kenneth-walker-lmpd-officer-describe-what-happened-night-breonna-taylor-died/32645491) the police didn’t wait for them to be able to come to the door and find a way to resolve the situation without the risk of violence. The fact that the police just knocked down the door without giving Taylor or Walker a chance to let them in was completely reckless and they were pretty clearly responsible for the ensuing violence. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/508 "2020-09-27T16:07:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Walker said he heard them knocking He also said they never responded when asked “Who is it?” before breaking down the door. Your irrelevant sidetrack is thus ignored. In the moment, it’s clear that he didn’t know who it was. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/509 "2020-09-27T16:38:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I don’t find it that plausible that they were knocking but not announcing themselves as police, especially when there is a neighbor who gave sworn testimony that they did so. That sworn testimony is not nearly as strong as you think it is. > **[Sole Witness Who Heard Cops Announce Themselves in Breonna Taylor Raid...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/sole-witness-heard-cops-announce-215316031.html)** > > This week, Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron made the bombshell announcement that the cops who fatally shot Breonna Taylor would not be charged with killing her, calling their use of force in the March raid “justified to protect themselves.”In... ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/510 "2020-09-27T18:17:05Z")
From Telemark’s [link](https://www.yahoo.com/news/sole-witness-heard-cops-announce-215316031.html): > [But, according to documents and audio obtained by VICE News](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bv8qyd/breonna-taylor-investigation-witness-changes-story) on Saturday, **that sole witness initially told investigators days after the March 13 raid that he didn’t actually hear officers Brett Hankison, Jonathan Mattingly, and Myles Cosgrove announce themselves.** > > The witness—identified by _VICE_ as Aarin Sarpee but by [other outlets and public records](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/us/breonna-taylor-police-killing.html) as Aaron Julue Sarpee—was picking up his daughter from a unit above Taylor’s when the raid took place. > > **It wasn’t until he was interviewed a second time, about two months after the raid by a sergeant in LMPD’s Public Integrity Unit, that Sarpee said he heard police say, “This is the cops.”** > \ > Sarpee’s flip-flop, the latest twist in a case that has made Taylor an icon in the Black Lives Matter movement, calls into question the strength of Cameron’s case and the grand jury report, which state officials are [demanding be made public](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/25/breonna-taylors-family-assails-kentucky-attorney-general-demands-grand-jury-information/). > \ > When Sgt. Jason Vance asked Sarpee if he heard anyone identify themselves as law enforcement, **[he answered:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOG__8efueU&feature=emb_title) “No, nobody identified themselves.”** (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/511 "2020-09-27T18:34:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Walker said he heard them knocking; a neighbor gave sworn testimony that he heard them yell “Police!” That’s not what the witness said AT THE TIME OF THE KILLING. > **[Sole Witness Who Heard Cops Announce Themselves in Breonna Taylor Raid...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/sole-witness-who-heard-cops-announce-themselves-in-breonna-taylor-raid-changed-his-story-says-report)** > > The only person who said he heard police announce themselves during the fatal raid said something very different two months earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/512 "2020-09-27T18:49:48Z")
“I didn’t know what was happening or understand the situation at the time, but I thought it was best to just start shooting and sort it out later” isn’t a convincing argument to me. > **[Lawyer says officer thought Blake was trying to kidnap child](https://apnews.com/article/shootings-police-jacob-blake-kenosha-rusten-sheskey-0324120f7524162d89424ac89e2aba00)** > > KENOSHA, Wis. (AP) — The Kenosha police officer who shot Jacob Blake in the back seven times last month told investigators he thought Blake was trying to abduct one of his own children and that he opened fire because Blake started turning toward the... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/513 "2020-09-28T06:25:30Z")
Maybe the boyfriend _didn’t_ shoot that cop? Interesting developments in the Breonna Taylor case: > **[Ballistics don't support AG Cameron's claim Breonna Taylor's boyfriend shot...](https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/breonna-taylor/2020/09/27/ballistics-report-dont-support-daniel-cameron-claim-breonna-taylor-boyfriend-shot-louisville-cop/3552007001/?fbclid=IwAR2OzbAlRo61fbNpNMzGdrWURHEnWkb11RUWw-L-eYzGO5nFsMBygt7hQlE)** > > A Kentucky State Police ballistics report failed to match a bullet that hit a Louisville cop in thigh to a shot fired by Breonna Taylor's boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/514 "2020-09-28T15:05:28Z")
Considering the cops were shooting pretty much in a panicked out of control random fashion, it is certainly possible that he was shot by one of his own fellow officers. It’s happened before. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/515 "2020-09-28T15:28:09Z")
“In response, the officers fired more than 20 rounds, hitting objects in the living room, dining room, kitchen, hallway, bathroom, and both bedrooms.” [Killing of Breonna Taylor - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor) Yeah, these three “highly trained” police officers were shooting every which way at some unknown, unseen threat. They did seem to focus on Breonna though. But, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn they were also shooting at each other and experienced a little friendly fire. BTW, I’m not sure of the discrepancy in that wiki article…32 or 20 shots fired by the murders? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/516 "2020-09-28T19:49:21Z")
Austin, Texas: > **[Texas sheriff indicted after probe into Black man's death](https://apnews.com/article/54b3c74d0be6b0f99c193f6f6020be67)** > > AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A Texas sheriff has been indicted on charges of destroying or concealing video in an investigation into the death in custody of a Black man, Javier Ambler, that was filmed by the police reality TV series “Live PD," prosecutors... > [@](#): > > A grand jury on Monday indicted a Texas sheriff on charges accusing him of destroying or concealing video in an investigation into the death of a Black man in police custody last year. > > Williamson County records show Sheriff Robert Chody is facing the third-degree felony charge that is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. He was booked into his jail Monday on a $10,000 bond. > > In June, Williamson County prosecutors announced an investigation “involving possible tampering with evidence” following the death of Javier Ambler in March 2019. The 40-year-old Black man died after Williamson County sheriff’s deputies repeatedly used stun guns on him, despite his pleas that he was sick and couldn’t breathe. > [@](#): > > Court records show Chody was indicted on charges that as an investigation into Ambler’s death was underway, the sheriff did “destroy or conceal” recordings “with intent to impair their ability their ability as evidence in the investigation.” Prosecutors could not immediately be reached for comment but they scheduled a Monday afternoon news conference. > > [Williamson County deputies attempted to pull Ambler](https://apnews.com/article/5acf7b57dccb82c668a74e39b9e78ffb) over on March 28, 2019, near downtown Austin because he failed to dim his headlights to oncoming traffic, according to a report first published by the Austin American-Statesman and KVUE-TV. The deputies were being filmed for A&E Network’s real-time police show “Live PD,” a feature of the arrest that prosecutors said was particularly troubling. > > Police body camera video of Ambler’s death shows the gasping 400-pound (180-kilogram) man telling the deputies that he wants to comply with their demands but that he can’t because he has congestive heart failure. > > “I am not resisting,” Ambler cries. “Sir, I can’t breathe. … Please. … Please.” > [@](#): > > Travis County prosecutors are separately investigating the use of force in Ambler’s death. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/517 "2020-09-28T20:04:18Z")
The problem is that even tho they can’t match the slug to Walker, he was the only one at the OK Corral with a 9mm. Eta: apparently one of the cops did have a 9mm, but it’s unknown (so far) if he had it with him and if it was fired ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/518 "2020-09-28T21:44:32Z")
Committing felonies to cover themselves? Murder charges for everyone, I don’t give a damn anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/519 "2020-09-28T21:57:58Z")
[Heavily armed in mental distress barricades himself in house.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ex-trump-campaign-manager-brad-parscale-knocked-to-the-ground-to-end-standoff-body-camera-footage-shows/ar-BB19vu9S?li=BBnb7Kz) And the police, remarkably, resist the urge to shoot. Odd. But the guy is white. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/520 "2020-09-29T01:33:41Z")
Luckily for him he wasn’t playing with a toy truck. That’s a death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/521 "2020-09-29T02:26:38Z")
The court denied Brett Hankinson the right to carry a gun for “self defense”. > **[Officer Indicted In Breonna Taylor Case Pleads Not Guilty](https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/09/28/917979301/officer-indicted-in-breonna-taylor-case-pleads-not-guilty)** > > Brett Hankison, the former Louisville Police Department detective, has pleaded not guilty to all three counts of wanton endangerment against him, his attorney said on Monday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=27)