# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/542 "2020-10-01T19:47:01Z")
I think this bit kind of fits in this thread. > **[DHS memo told officials to make comments favorable to Kenosha shootings suspect](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/internal-document-shows-trump-officials-were-told-make-comments-sympathetic-n1241581)** > > In prepping DHS officials for questions about Rittenhouse, the document suggests they say he took a gun to Kenosha "to help defend small business owners." ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/543 "2020-10-02T03:43:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Dam operators in the real world would be horrified at a death on their watch, a death caused by their failure to exercise due care. They would 100% examine and re-evaluate their procedures, and institute additional safety protocols in the honest attempt to ensure it doesn’t happen again. The police haven’t done that, they refuse to even acknowledge that they have a responsibility to prevent these deaths. This is [flat out false:](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/09/15/breonna-taylor-shooting-city-louisville-settles-family/5801720002/) “The settlement also makes a series of changes to Louisville Metro Police policy and practices designed to strengthen officers’ connections to the community, reform the search warrant process and make officers more accountable and their actions more transparent. “The Taylor family said those changes were particularly important to help prevent future victims like Breonna.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/544 "2020-10-02T03:48:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This is a bad example, as utility technicians like that are actually required to do their own due diligence and ensure that their actions are safe to do, and not to just blindly trust their superiors. > > They will be held accountable if they were to follow an order that ended up with some sort of loss of life or property if they did not verify that what they were doing was safe to do. Bullshit. No way do I believe that they have to go out and canvas the area themselves to verify that it is clear. Just like a beat cop executing a warrant is not, and should not be, expected to go and question the judge who has signed a legally executed warrant. Maybe not just question the judge but go do their own independent investigation? Pffft. Making sure the warrant is a good one is a responsibility for others in the system. The wheels of justice would grind to a halt if it were otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/545 "2020-10-02T04:19:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “The settlement also makes a series of changes to Louisville Metro Police policy and practices designed to strengthen officers’ connections to the community, reform the search warrant process and make officers more accountable and their actions more transparent. This is the same city where black drivers are more likely to be pulled over and 3 times more likely to be searched than white drivers? I’m sure they’ll get right on that. > **['You’re going to do what I tell you.' Stats don't lie, black Louisville...](https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2019/06/07/lmpd-data-shows-black-drivers-searched-far-more-than-whites/1369516001/)** > > African American drivers in Louisville were searched 12% of the time they were stopped by police, versus 4% of the time for white drivers. > Though African Americans make up about 20% of Louisville’s driving-age population, they accounted for 33% of the stops and 57% of the 8,942 searches. > > Black motorists were searched 12% of the time they were stopped, compared with 4% of the time for white drivers. > > But the data shows that police found contraband in 72% of the searches of whites versus only 41% for African Americans. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/546 "2020-10-02T05:20:32Z")
All the drug war laws need to be repealed. No more searching for “contraband” unless it is for weapons used in a shooting, or bomb materials, etc. But Black people commit a lot more violent crime per capita than white people do, so we should not be surprised or even disconcerted if, even after we get rid of the stupid drug laws, they have more contact with police than white people do. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/547 "2020-10-02T13:06:27Z")
I didn’t say that, and if you are only able to argue against straw, then I will take that as a concession on your part. However, if a technician knows that there is a town downstream, which they would have no reason not to, and they were told to go ahead and just throw open the floodgates, which they very well would know would inundate the town, or if they could see a boater or swimmer who would be pulled under or over the dam by their actions, then they could be held personally liable, even if they were “following orders.” To take it another step, from what iiandyiiii and others I have talked to that were nukies on a sub, they _were_ required to make sure that any order they followed was not going to cause harm or damage, and to question or refuse any order that they didn’t think was safe to execute. Kicking someone’s door down in the middle of the night is the sort of thing that has a very high probability of causing harm. They are charged with protecting the residents of their beat, and this action threatens harm to those they are supposed to be protecting. I’m not saying that they should have to do their own investigation, I’m saying that they should refuse to follow an order that has a high chance of causing harm. They should absolutely question the one who gave them the order, to ensure that the reason for them creating this unsafe action is truly to promote public safety, for instance, a kidnapping or hostage situation, and refuse the order unless they are presented with evidence that shows that the risk is necessary. And further, should they be executing such a warrant, if they encounter resistance, their first action should not to be start firing blindly, but instead, to seek cover and assess the situation. Personally, I do think that they should be accountable for negligent homicide. I see no reason why that charge should not be applicable. > **[Manslaughter vs. Criminally Negligent Homicide - NY Criminal Defense](https://www.ny-criminal-defense-lawyer.com/manslaughter-vs-criminally-negligent-homicide/)** > > What is the difference between manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide in New York? If you're facing any of these charges call NY Defense Lawyer Troy Smith now! > [@](#): > > **negligent homicide** occurs when the perpetrator acts in a reckless, dangerous, or **negligent** manner which causes the death of another person. If they didn’t break any laws, then that right there is the problem. Someone is dead, because of the negligent violence of these cops, and no one is held accountable. If they cannot be charged, then laws should be made so that if this unfortunate situation happens again, then those cops would be. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/548 "2020-10-02T13:11:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But Black people commit a lot more violent crime per capita than white people do, so we should not be surprised or even disconcerted if, even after we get rid of the stupid drug laws, they have more contact with police than white people do. Black people are charged with more violent crime, that doesn’t always mean that they actually committed it, as seen by the number of violent crimes that are unsolved, as well as the high number of black people that are wrongfully accused and/or convicted. Separate from that, poor people commit more violent crime than affluent people, so, your point should really be that if you are poor, then you should expect to have violent contact with the police. It’s actually a pretty fucked up position you have taken. People blame black people for the crimes that other black people are accused of, and then tell black people that have done absolutely nothing wrong that they should not be surprised or even disconcerted if they are treated as criminals. Do you not see how the attitude that you profess here is a very good reason for black people to _not_ trust the police? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/549 "2020-10-02T13:48:04Z")
It’s mostly white liberals, and some young Black radicals, who are against the police. Middle-aged and older Black people—Biden voters—generally would prefer a _greater_ police presence in their neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/550 "2020-10-02T14:04:07Z")
Bailing hay much? You said that we should not be disconcerted about having more contact with the police, because black people are statistically more likely to be criminals. You said this in response to people complaining about them being targeted due to their race. The statistics that you replied to showed that white people were more likely to be carrying contraband than black people, but you claim that black people are more criminal, so we should expect them to be targeted. I am sure that many would like to have police presence in their neighborhood, community policing. What they don’t want is having their doors kicked down in the middle of the night. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/551 "2020-10-02T17:33:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s mostly white liberals, and some young Black radicals, who are against the police. Middle-aged and older Black people—Biden voters—generally would prefer a _greater_ police presence in their neighborhoods. Maybe they would like competent police officers? [# Louisville cops repeatedly told Breonna Taylor was not receiving suspicious packages tied to drug investigation, report says](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/louisville-cops-repeatedly-told-breonna-taylor-was-not-receiving-suspicious-packages-tied-to-drug-investigation-report-says/ar-BB19Eb0v?li=BBnb7Kz) > Louisville police officers carried out a no-knock raid at the home of Breonna Taylor despite the fact that they were repeatedly told there were no packages, “suspicious or otherwise,” delivered to the residence that could be tied to their drug investigation, according to a new report. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/552 "2020-10-02T18:49:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is [flat out false:](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/09/15/breonna-taylor-shooting-city-louisville-settles-family/5801720002/) > > “The settlement also makes a series of changes to Louisville Metro Police policy and practices designed to strengthen officers’ connections to the community, reform the search warrant process and make officers more accountable and their actions more transparent. > > “The Taylor family said those changes were particularly important to help prevent future victims like Breonna.” That’s one police department, 16,999 to go. As I said… grudgingly changing practices after nationwide protests. Every police department that pays millions of dollars in damages is likely to review their practices. Do we need 17,000 more young women woken up in the dead of night and murdered to get the rest of the police departments in our country to change their warrant practices? Again, in the real world, an industry that kills thousands of people a year, would work goddamn hard to cut those losses. They wouldn’t be defending every death as an unavoidable consequence of their business. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/553 "2020-10-02T19:24:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > in the real world, an industry that kills thousands of people a year, would work goddamn hard to cut those losses You mean like, say, the tobacco industry? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/554 "2020-10-02T19:26:42Z")
Yes, the cops are much like the tobacco industry, now that you mention it. Don’t care who they kill, protected against liability, and it took massive amounts of political work in order to even start stemming the tide of death they are responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/555 "2020-10-02T19:56:15Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You mean like, say, the tobacco industry I went out on a limb and tried the “industry isn’t entirely soulless” gambit. Won’t make that mistake again. I work for a company that walks the walk on safety, we have a weekly discussion that starts with safety, and if some dude cut his finger, the CEO asks “Was he wearing the company approved hand protection? Do we need to reassess the type of gloves we provide?” Paying attention actually works. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/556 "2020-10-02T22:53:17Z")
Though, as far as I can tell, tobacco companies were not in the business of creating social disorder. They just wanted to maximize profits. The police, by contrast, cannot be highly effective, because if crime falls away, the need for them becomes questionable. They have to maintain just the right balance of chaos in order to look like they are needed while actually having enough success to not look useless. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/557 "2020-10-02T23:51:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Bailing hay much? Hay is _baled_, not bailed. > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Maybe they would like competent police officers? > > [# Louisville cops repeatedly told Breonna Taylor was not receiving suspicious packages tied to drug investigation, report says](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/louisville-cops-repeatedly-told-breonna-taylor-was-not-receiving-suspicious-packages-tied-to-drug-investigation-report-says/ar-BB19Eb0v?li=BBnb7Kz) 🙄 Did you seriously not read my repeated statements, starting with my first one on this topic, that it looks like the warrant was bogus? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/558 "2020-10-03T17:04:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Hay is _baled_ , not bailed. Not when you are desperately shoveling it out of your sinking ship. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/559 "2020-10-03T22:40:36Z")
I initially read it as boiled. I’m pretty sure it’s not going to be much easier to eat that way. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/560 "2020-10-04T00:35:53Z")
More from Louisiana: > **[AP: Trooper's mic records talk of beating, choking Black man](https://apnews.com/article/us-news-ap-top-news-louisiana-a84a8378a6d6f9998dc9e980ab7228c5)** > > In graphic, matter-of-fact chatter picked up on his body-camera mic, a Louisiana State trooper implicated in the death of a Black man can be heard talking of beating and choking him before “all of a sudden he just went limp... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/561 "2020-10-06T08:12:01Z")
So this just happened in Bend, Oregon on October 3rd-Police pretending to be friendly, police ignoring multiple requests for help from several people, police ignoring wrongdoing from rightwing agitators, police grinning and letting drunk and armed rightwing agitators drive away etc. > **[Mike Satcher](https://www.facebook.com/mike.satcher/posts/10220258126535954? __tn__ =K-R)** > > I've just sent this letter to all of Bend City government, and to the command staff at the City of Bend Police Department. > > ... > > To whom it may concern, > > I am writing this through the fog of the... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=29)