# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1324 "2021-04-16T15:23:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I get that you want to reduce everything to racial motive or injustice, conscious or otherwise. No; you don’t appear to “get” it. The only person I see trying to reduce anything here is you. Including racial animus is not reducing everything to racial animus. What the fuck point are you trying to make here, anyway? You’re doing a terrible job of it. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1325 "2021-04-16T15:23:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The above passage shows me you’re still not getting it. In a larger sense, _it doesn’t matter if those cops have personal racial animus or not_ . The entire law enforcement system is set up to devalue Black bodies and Black lives – from the training to the culture to the blue wall to the personalities that are recruited and more. I don’t think this is correct. The problem with the police in this country is that they’re simply too quick to resort to deadly force without provocation. This isn’t a racially dependent variable. Moreover, we need to remember that there are far more guns in this country than there are people. It’s only rational for a cop to approach every encounter under the assumption that the person they’re addressing is armed, because they only need to be wrong once. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1326 "2021-04-16T15:23:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wow, exactly. @QuickSilver, do you want to rephrase there? Or are you really on the verge of murder every time someone verbally berates you? Oh come the fuck on… you can’t be fucking serious with this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1327 "2021-04-16T15:27:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > > I get that you want to reduce everything to racial motive or injustice, conscious or otherwise. > > No; you don’t appear to “get” it. The only person I see trying to reduce anything here is you. Including racial animus is not reducing everything to racial animus. > > What the fuck point are you trying to make here, anyway? You’re doing a terrible job of it. Not my words; Andy’s --: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The entire law enforcement system is set up to devalue Black bodies and Black lives – from the training to the culture to the blue wall to the personalities that are recruited and more. It wasn’t set up to protect and serve Black people. It was set up to protect the interests of the wealthy and powerful – and one of their interests was feeding and serving the racial conflict and fear – both whites’ fear of black people and Blacks’ fear of law enforcement (and of white people). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1328 "2021-04-16T15:27:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Oh come the fuck on… you can’t be fucking serious with this bullshit. Still, the hyperbole is not productive and is reflective of part of the issue here. Any citizen should have the absolute right to be as mouthy as s/he will to a police officer with _ **zero** _ fear of violent retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1329 "2021-04-16T15:27:55Z")
You’re the one who praised the restraint of an officer for not shooting a lady who yelled at them. That’s just nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1330 "2021-04-16T15:28:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Now, imagine that multiple times a day, every working day, for years. It’s gotta leave a mental mark on a normal person to be constantly dealing with abusive behavior from people who did something wrong and then refuse to co-operate or become outright argumentative and abusive. Agreed. But why does this frustration turn into violence that’s so disproportionately inflicted on people of color? > [@WalterBishop](#): > > It’s only rational for a cop to approach every encounter under the assumption that the person they’re addressing is armed, because they only need to be wrong once. Agreed. But why does this rational fear turn into violence that’s so disproportionately inflicted on people of color? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1331 "2021-04-16T15:28:41Z")
What does any of that have to do with the personal feelings of cops? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1332 "2021-04-16T15:30:44Z")
I don’t understand what you’re asking… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1333 "2021-04-16T15:31:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I thought he showed remarkable restraint in not shooting her. I know you’re being hyperbolic, but I bet that particular Karen lays out shit like that a few times a week to various peons working retail or service jobs and nobody credits them for not taking a swipe at her. Yet a guy to whom we give power, training, and deadly weapons we express surprise that he didn’t violently assault a person who was being disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1334 "2021-04-16T15:33:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Now, imagine that multiple times a day, every working day, for years. It’s gotta leave a mental mark on a normal person to be constantly dealing with abusive behavior from people who did something wrong and then refuse to co-operate or become outright argumentative and abusive. Back when Maher was funny, he had a bit, where he talked about this. \*“Oh, you don’t know what it’s like to be a cop!” he exclaims. “Right, and you don’t know what it’s like to be a proctologist.” \*This is of course paraphrased, as it’s been a couple decades since I saw it, and I was not able to locate the orignal video. I worked in fast food, in the drive thru window. You know how much shit I had to deal with? You know how many times I had food or drinks thrown in my face? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not trying to justify these clearly wrongful shootings. But I don’t know if cops are getting the mental support they need to continue to do their jobs without becoming very angry and broken inside over time. It is possible that this is the case. But they make their problem everyone else’s problem. Like you said, there are cops who are angry and broken inside, and you don’t know if the cop who you are encountering is having a bad day and looking to take it out on someone. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1335 "2021-04-16T15:35:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The question is, how does the person being detained know that these are “better” people who would not shoot them? > > They don’t. That is why they are in fear for their lives. That’s a vlid question too, but Quicksilver’s question is also valid: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > How do we know whether the officers involved in that incident weren’t just better people who would have chosen not to shoot Wright or this kid under similar circumstance? You don’t know. Horrifying videos of the cops killing people without justification are obviously not a statistically accurate sampling of cop interactions (and one can find videos of white and Asian people being shot or assaulted, too; the video of the man crawling and begging for his life, only to be executed for no reason, is maybe the worst one you’ll ever see, and he was white. I really don’t recommend watching it if you haven’t seen it. The cop, of course, was acquitted.) The problem is often racist cops, but that is not where the problem starts, and trying to analyze whether each cop is a racist won’t solve the problem; I mean, does it MATTER if Derek Chauvin is a racist in terms of determining his guilt? IMHO, the central problem is that cops are being taught to consider themselves an occupying army that stands in opposition to the people, rather than serving them. It is inevitably a racist position to take, because systemic racism will bleed into that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1336 "2021-04-16T15:54:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is possible that this is the case. But they make their problem everyone else’s problem. Like you said, there are cops who are angry and broken inside, and you don’t know if the cop who you are encountering is having a bad day and looking to take it out on someone. Right. And as stated earlier: > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > When _I_ think of “re-imagine policing,” I think of dramatically more pre-hire psychological screening and infinitely more ongoing mental health evaluation, counseling, and support. And later: > [@RickJay](#): > > IMHO, the central problem is that cops are being taught to consider themselves an occupying army that stands in opposition to the people, rather than serving them. These are problems that need immediate attention and reform because from a step-wise approach, they can be fixed in a very real and practical sense. What is not useful to so say: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The entire law enforcement system is set up to devalue Black bodies and Black lives – from the training to the culture to the blue wall to the personalities that are recruited and more. It wasn’t set up to protect and serve Black people. It was set up to protect the interests of the wealthy and powerful – and one of their interests was feeding and serving the racial conflict and fear – both whites’ fear of black people and Blacks’ fear of law enforcement (and of white people). While this may be true to an extent, this is not in any way a useful attempt at a workable solution. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1337 "2021-04-16T16:05:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > While this may be true to an extent, this is not in any way a useful attempt at a workable solution. There’s no possibility of a workable solution if we can’t accurately describe the problem. And the problem is the whole system. That doesn’t necessarily mean break everything down to atoms and start again, but it means there’s much, much more to it than identifying and removing racist cops. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1338 "2021-04-16T16:14:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s no possibility of a workable solution if we can’t accurately describe the problem. What you offered (and I quoted) is not an accurate description of the current problem, IMO. It’s actually an unhelpful way of looking at the problem. What is applicable are the solutions offered and quoted above. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1339 "2021-04-16T16:34:14Z")
I definitely don’t see this as an either-or situation. There have been an endless number of instances, in business, where I’ve offered the question, “What problem are we trying to solve ?” That’s the strategy. Moving on to the proposed methods to try to solve that problem is the tactics. I do think it’s valuable-to-critical to understand and agree on strategy before tactics can be considered. One of the primary ways to evaluate those proposed tactics _is_ to measure them against the yardstick _of_ the strategy and decide if they get us closer to that goal. But it seems important to me to delineate which piece of the puzzle we’re working on for some of these comments: does it go to _strategy_ or does it go to _tactics._ ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1340 "2021-04-16T16:34:53Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Agreed. But why does this rational fear turn into violence that’s so disproportionately inflicted on people of color? I’m not convinced that it _is_ disproportionate. In terms of raw numbers, it certainly _appears_ disproportionate. According to the data from the Washington Post Police Shootings Database, black people are shot at 2.5 times the rate of white people once we correct for the relative percentages of blacks and whites in the general population. However, that doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. To get a complete picture of police interactions between black and white citizens, we need to take into account the relative likelihood of black and white citizens _encountering the police in the first place_. A study by (black) Harvard economist Roland Fryer found that, since black men are considerably more likely to encounter the police than white men (for several reasons, such as their being more likely to live in areas with higher crime rates and, also, it must be said, their being more likely to _commit_ crime), if you correct for this the racial disparity in police shootings virtually disappears. Here’s a link to the study. [An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force.](https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force) It’s important to note, however, that while the study casts doubt over the notion of a statistically significant racial disparity in police shootings, it simultaneously _reinforces_ the fact that there exists a racial disparity in the way police employ _non-lethal_ force. Cops are more likely to use handcuffs and/or non-lethal weapons on black suspects, and this disparity remains even after you correct for the number of police encounters black and white suspects are likely to have. The study indicates that work definitely needs to be done to eradicate racial bias in policing, but that this bias probably doesn’t extend to shootings. Also, it should be noted that the _impression_ of a disparity is likely reinforced by the fact that egregious examples of police brutality against black people get a good deal of publicity, while equivalently egregious examples of police brutality against white people get far less. For example, everyone has heard of George Floyd, yet few people have heard of Tony Timpa. Timpa was a white man with a history of mental illness who called the police _on himself_ because he realized he was having a psychotic episode. Not only was Timpa unarmed, but by the time the cops arrived, he’d already had his hands cuffed behind his back by a nearby store security guard. Despite posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, Timpa was then held face down by three cops for 13 minutes while he repeatedly screamed “YOU’RE KILLING ME!”. For a significant proportion of that time, one of the cops had a knee on Timpa’s upper back. Timpa, of course, died. The cops, of course, were found innocent of wrongdoing, even though coroners ruled Timpa’s death a homicide. Similarly, everyone has heard of Brionna Taylor. Very few people have heard of Duncan Lemp, a white man shot dead while he was asleep in bed by police serving a no knock warrant. Everyone has heard of Tamir Rice, but very few people have heard of Linden Cameron, a white, unarmed, 13 year old autistic boy who was shot running away from a cop. Cameron’s mother had called the cops to help her because Cameron was having a psychological episode. When he ran out of the house a cop shot him 11 times in the back. He survived, barely, and with no thanks to the cop. Then we’ve got the case of Daniel Shaver (an unarmed white man shot in the back by a cop wielding a rifle with “YOU’RE FUCKED” written on it - the cop, naturally, escaped punishment). It only took me a couple of minutes to find a case similar to that of Daunte Wright. Robert Sikon, a 41 year old unarmed white man, was pulled over by the cops and, when the cop tried to arrest him for an outstanding child support warrant, Sikon ran only to be shot in the back. Bear in mind, this is just the stuff I can reel off the top of my head. For every instance of lethal police brutality suffered by a black person, it’s possible to find an identical instance (or an instance similar enough to make no difference) happening to a white person, often within 6 months or so. Now, to be clear, I’m not saying that cases of police brutality against black people shouldn’t receive national attention. I’m saying it’s possible that some people’s _perception_ of the threat black men face from the police is influenced by the fact that _only_ police brutality against black men gets national attention. If national news media reported police brutality in a more balanced way, people would probably have a more accurate picture of what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1341 "2021-04-16T16:51:50Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Bear in mind, this is just the stuff I can reel off the top of my head. For every instance of lethal police brutality suffered by a black person, it’s possible to find an identical instance (or an instance similar enough to make no difference) happening to a white person, often within 6 months or so. My problem with your analysis is that it lacks about 245 years of absolutely critical context (that I in no way mean to imply you’re unaware of). The codification and institutionalization of systemic racism in this country cannot be disputed by any serious person. When a white person is grossly mistreated by a LEO, there is less of a wholly critical, material, and relevant narrative that must be included in considering how we got to that place, and how we might ameliorate it going forward. It reminds me of the saying, “White privilege doesn’t mean that you don’t have any problems. It just means that the color of your skin isn’t one of those problems.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1342 "2021-04-16T16:54:03Z")
That strikes me as the well meaning but tragically ignorant white solution. I don’t buy it. I think Black people just inherently understand this stuff much, much better. And that’s where I’m getting my views. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1343 "2021-04-16T16:59:04Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > we need to take into account the relative likelihood of black and white citizens _encountering the police in the first place_ . And that is one of the things that needs to be looked into, whether the cops are choosing to encounter black people more often due to racial bias. According to some studies, including the report that came out for Ferguson, the answer is yes. But yes, you are correct that the police, overall, also need to stop treating all the citizens as poorly as they often do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=68)