# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1344 "2021-04-16T17:07:54Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > A study by (black) Harvard economist Roland Fryer found that, since black men are considerably more likely to encounter the police than white men (for several reasons, such as their being more likely to live in areas with higher crime rates and, also, it must be said, their being more likely to _commit_ crime), if you correct for this the racial disparity in police shootings virtually disappears. Here’s a link to the study. I agree with much of what you said in this post and want to call out the above. To me the most troubling aspect of our society is that black men have such a high rate of criminality when compared to other sub groups. I understand iiandyiiii’s focus on the racism of the police but to me that’s the end of the problem. The start of the problem is determining why society is channeling so many black men into encounters with the police. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1345 "2021-04-16T17:11:23Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > black men are considerably more likely to encounter the police than white men (for several reasons, such as…their being more likely to _commit_ crime) How could one possibly measure this? We know that black men are more likely to be _convicted_ of crime. But if the system is biased, that’s what we’re going to find even if the actual real crime rate were perfectly flat. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1346 "2021-04-16T17:12:18Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > To me the most troubling aspect of our society is that black men have such a high rate of criminality when compared to other sub groups. Heh. I encountered police in my 20s, 30s, 40s, while hanging out with other white guys smoking weed. Each of the encounters ended with the police “warning us” as we disbursed. I have a strong suspicion we would have received more than a warning had we been a group of black guys. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1347 "2021-04-16T17:16:45Z")
Back in the “day”, I drove way too fast, and often had some kind of contraband on me. I always got my ticket talked down to something easier to deal with (from 35 over to 19 over), and never got searched. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1348 "2021-04-16T17:18:49Z")
To be clear I think there is ample evidence to show that police react differently to white and black perps, which is why I understand iiandyiiii’s concern. If we could somehow solve the high incidence of black male crime then I think a lot that bias goes away, or at least is mitigated because it happens less often. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1349 "2021-04-16T17:20:49Z")
Once again, is it that they are committing crimes more than white males, or is is that they are caught, arrested, and convicted more than white males? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1350 "2021-04-16T17:25:47Z")
Good question and I don’t have the answer to that. It would be part of understanding and “solving” (for whatever that means) the problem. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1351 "2021-04-16T17:28:21Z")
Don’t be a black man near a Walgreen’s drug store when any other black man is nearby doing something wrong. [Body cam showing escalation from civil to WTF!](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/mrq4u3/valdosta_police_lt_billy_wheeler_breaks_black/) [The lawsuit](https://www.ajc.com/news/valdosta-officer-claims-slamming-black-man-to-ground-justified/ZNUMM6EEKRCXZDT2RCUYVSFJWE/) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1352 "2021-04-16T17:41:23Z")
That’s pretty fucked up. Even if he _were_ the one they wanted, they still escalated to force unnecessarily, causing injury. The fact that they just picked a random black guy on the street to detain just adds insult. As I’ve said in these sorts of threads before, it’s not just the threat of being killed that makes people rightfully fear encountering the police. I doubt that this is the first time that officer bear hug has body slammed someone while they were offering no threat or resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1353 "2021-04-16T17:49:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > > [@Deeg](#): > > > > To me the most troubling aspect of our society is that black men have such a high rate of criminality when compared to other sub groups. > > Heh. I encountered police in my 20s, 30s, 40s, while hanging out with other white guys smoking weed. Each of the encounters ended with the police “warning us” as we disbursed. I have a strong suspicion we would have received more than a warning had we been a group of black guys. My experience exactly. I’ve also been pulled over for expired tags, speeding and an illegal left turn – the last of which occurred at 2:00 a.m. with a quarter pound of weed in the back seat. Never once had the car searched. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1354 "2021-04-16T17:51:09Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > My experience exactly. I’ve also been pulled over for expired tags, speeding and an illegal left turn – the last of which occurred at 2:00 a.m. with a quarter pound of weed in the back seat. Never once had the car searched. Me as well. Never once searched, had drugs on me A LOT. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1355 "2021-04-16T17:55:21Z")
This may be a good time to bring up Lexington Ky again. Where blacks are _far_ more likely to be pulled over and searched than whites, although whites were _more_ likely to have contraband when searched. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1356 "2021-04-16T18:00:02Z")
> [@mistymage](#): > > Don’t be a black man near a Walgreen’s drug store when any other black man is nearby doing something wrong. > > [Body cam showing escalation from civil to WTF!](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/mrq4u3/valdosta_police_lt_billy_wheeler_breaks_black/) > > [The lawsuit](https://www.ajc.com/news/valdosta-officer-claims-slamming-black-man-to-ground-justified/ZNUMM6EEKRCXZDT2RCUYVSFJWE/) The department’s description of the incident: > **[Valdosta Police Department](https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3240102719345407&id=150225644999812)** > > On Friday, June 19, 2020, The City of Valdosta was notified by the Valdosta Daily Times (“VDT”) about a lawsuit against the Valdosta Police Department (“VPD”) and the City regarding an incident that... ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1357 "2021-04-16T18:01:29Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > My experience exactly. I’ve also been pulled over for expired tags, speeding and an illegal left turn – the last of which occurred at 2:00 a.m. with a quarter pound of weed in the back seat. Never once had the car searched. > > Me as well. Never once searched, had drugs on me A LOT. A friend of mine was once pulled over for speeding. He had weed in the center console. The cop had him step out of the car, and then _asked if he would grant permission for him to search the car_. My friend said no, and the cop left him alone. Yeah, we’re white. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1358 "2021-04-16T18:15:48Z")
I got pulled over for doing over 80 in a 55, on my way to a hemp festival. There were 4 other people in the car, all of us had _something_ on us, not to mention buttloads of paraphernalia. I was wearing last year’s hemp fest T-shirt, fortunately, my passenger mentioned it, and I zipped up my jacket as the cop was walking up to the car. I talked to the cop about camping and dogs for a bit, he wrote me up for 74 (which meant it wasn’t reckless op, just a ticket), wished me a good day, and told me to drive safe. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1359 "2021-04-16T18:36:28Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > I’m not convinced that it _is_ disproportionate. In terms of raw numbers, it certainly _appears_ disproportionate. According to the data from the Washington Post Police Shootings Database, black people are shot at 2.5 times the rate of white people once we correct for the relative percentages of blacks and whites in the general population. You do not seem to be taking this data you revealed into account for later parts of your post. You say that the data shows that police shoot black people 2.5 times as often. But later on, you claim that, for every black person killed, you can find a white person. But, according to your data, you would in fact find that there are 2 white people for every 5 black people. When numbers are high, like they are with police brutality, it may look like both sides are roughly equal. That’s why getting actual data, rather than going by comparing anecdotes. This is what it meant by saying that anecdotes are not data–human brains don’t handle larger numbers well. You can argue about why the disparity exists. But the data you gave shows the disparity is there, and your defense that there are just as many white victims does not hold. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1360 "2021-04-16T18:39:50Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > However, that doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. To get a complete picture of police interactions between black and white citizens, we need to take into account the relative likelihood of black and white citizens _encountering the police in the first place_ . > > A study by (black) Harvard economist Roland Fryer found that, since black men are considerably more likely to encounter the police than white men (for several reasons, such as their being more likely to live in areas with higher crime rates and, also, it must be said, their being more likely to _commit_ crime), if you correct for this the racial disparity in police shootings virtually disappears You’ve already made a serious error. _You are assuming the only reasons Black people can be engaged in interactions with police are legitimate reasons._ Why should I believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1361 "2021-04-16T18:43:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > _You are assuming the only reasons Black people can be engaged in interactions with police are legitimate reasons._ > > Why should I believe that? Even if every interaction is legitimate, there’s no reason to believe police don’t use their _discretion_ to eschew legitimate reasons to interact with white people in favor of interacting “legitimately” with black people. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1362 "2021-04-16T18:47:32Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > > [@WalterBishop](#): > > > > black men are considerably more likely to encounter the police than white men (for several reasons, such as…their being more likely to _commit_ crime) > > How could one possibly measure this? We know that black men are more likely to be _convicted_ of crime. But if the system is biased, that’s what we’re going to find even if the actual real crime rate were perfectly flat. This is important. We don’t know that black people factually commit more crimes, and have data to back up that black people are more likely to be punished and punished more severely than white people who commit the same crime. For example: > **[Same Crime, More Time](https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration)** > > Research by criminal justice professor William Sabol reveals that racial disparities in the U.S. prison population have declined, but Blacks are still serving longer sentences than whites. However, I’d like to make a different point. At the very least, not everyone agrees that black people commit more crime. Yet, you, @WalterBishop stated this entirely uncritically, without examining it, and without attempting to prove it. That sort of thing suggests a subconscious bias. It’s something you just assume is true, and thus it didn’t occur to you that it might not be, or that many of us would not agree at all. And the claim that black people are more inherently criminal is a common racist claim—one you may have heard and internalized without realizing it. That sort of thing is exactly the problem. There’s this cultural assumption that black people are more likely to be criminal. That is an assumption that must be challenged. It cannot just be accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1363 "2021-04-16T19:26:16Z")
Also in Minnesota: A white man beat a store clerk with a block of wood after being told he had to wear a mask. Once the cops showed up, he tried to flee, and rolled up his truck’s window, leaving the cop with his arm trapped, as he drove away at 40 mph. The cop pulled out his windshield hammer and broke the side window to get his arm untrapped. The guy grabbed the hammer and beat the cop in the head with it. He was not tased or shot. One guess what color he is. > **[Minnesota motorist hits cop with hammer after dragging him with truck, cops say](https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-minnesota-motorist-hammer-drag-truck-20210415-5ehmxl5boreu5jzyubitseashu-story.html)** > > Social media users noted that earlier in the week a Minnesota Black man was killed during a traffic stop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=69)