# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531 "2020-06-23T20:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1384 "2021-04-17T07:45:45Z")
Here’s a development I wasn’t expecting - Pat Robertson is now speaking out against police brutality. > **['Pro-police' televangelist Pat Robertson slams Derek Chauvin, Kim Potter,...](https://news.yahoo.com/pro-police-televangelist-pat-robertson-050500274.html)** > > O.G. televangelist Pat Robertson isn't about to take to the streets to protest the police shooting of Daunte Wright at the hands of former Minnesota police officer Kim Potter, arrested Wednesday and charged with second-degree manslaughter. But like... ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1385 "2021-04-17T13:56:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Nope. Just here to throw stuff into the quary. It seems as though you are the quarry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1386 "2021-04-17T14:02:40Z")
Y’know, anything of value is taken _out_ of the quarry, not thrown in. Puts your contribution in the proper perspective, QuickSilver. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1387 "2021-04-17T17:27:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And what the fuck is going on when three cops are attempting to pull a guy out of his car for something as trivial as an air freshener hanging from a mirror? This is such a monumental cluster fuck. Where is the body cam video that shows what caused this kind of escalation? What’s the problem? That is just how American policing is done. Yell and scream at the suspect/citizen very rapidly and loudly. Be sure you have at least one of your weapons pointed at the suspect/citizen at all times. If the suspect/citizen is believed to have committed a felony shoot them if they say anything. If it’s believed to be a misdemeanor then only shoot them if they move their arms or legs. Do not give the suspect/citizen any opportunity to answer your accusations and above all, do NOT let the suspect/citizen leave the scene until either 1) you order them to leave, or 2) they are dead. Remember, the suspect/citizen doesn’t have to be non-white to be accosted like this, but it helps. The problem isn’t unfair treatment of minorities by police, the problem is cops are being way too soft and easy on the whites. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1388 "2021-04-17T17:49:45Z")
[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/evolution-of-a-city-s-account-of-a-killing-how-chicago-s-narrative-changed-in-the-fatal-police-shooting-of-adam-toledo/ar-BB1fJPrD](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/evolution-of-a-city-s-account-of-a-killing-how-chicago-s-narrative-changed-in-the-fatal-police-shooting-of-adam-toledo/ar-BB1fJPrD) > ## April 10: Prosecutor says Adam was holding gun when he was shot > > Saturday, prosecutors described what the officer’s body camera footage showed, alleging Adam was holding a gun when the officer shot him. Lying sack of shit had seen the video, lied anyway. These people have no morals or ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1389 "2021-04-17T23:48:58Z")
Fairfax County, VA is dropping 400 convictions after one of their former cops is accused of stealing drugs from the police property room, planting drugs on innocent people and stopping motorists without legal basis. > **[Fairfax seeks to dismiss 400 convictions in cases brought by one officer](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/04/16/convictions-dismiss-jonathan-freitag-fairfax/)** > > Jonathan Freitag resigned while under internal Fairfax police investigation in May 2020, then joined the Brevard County Sheriff's Office three months later. He was fired earlier this month. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1390 "2021-04-18T00:29:50Z")
> **[Column: Former top cop Eddie Johnson defends officer in Adam Toledo’s death](https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-prem-adam-toledo-eddie-johnson-20210416-i2afgarwhreyhellfct7wlfhey-story.html)** > > Former Chicago police superintendent Eddie Johnson said the officer who shot Adam Toledo was following his training. Note, Eddie Johnson is black. > “All of this happened in less than a second,” Johnson said. “To think the officer could process it that quickly is not being fair. It’s tragic all the way around. … Tossing a weapon and turning around in a split second doesn’t give your brain time enough to process. Reality isn’t like Hollywood. It’s much different.” ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1391 "2021-04-18T00:35:25Z")
The officer could process there was a gun in less than a second, but couldn’t process that it was tossed? Fuck Eddie Johnson too. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1392 "2021-04-18T01:28:58Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Fairfax County, VA is dropping 400 convictions after one of their former cops is accused of stealing drugs from the police property room, planting drugs on innocent people and stopping motorists without legal basis. Another cop who has done far, far more harm than the ‘criminals’ they are supposed to be ‘protecting’ us from. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1393 "2021-04-18T09:15:32Z")
> [@Fucking maskholes and vaxholes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-maskholes-and-vaxholes/915339/608): > > Hutchinson, Minnesota: > [The Latest: Minnesotan charged with attacks over mask demand | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/world-news-pandemics-pakistan-coronavirus-pandemic-bbbbaa25a2eec2942480b6fbdc26a529) > > > [@](#): > > > > The Minneapolis Star Tribune reported that the incident began Wednesday afternoon when a cashier at a Menards in Hutchinson told 61-year-old Luke Oeltjenbruns that he couldn’t check out unless he put on a mask, according to a criminal complaint. Oeltjenbruns tried to leave with his merchandise, prompting the cashier to grab his cart. > > > > The complaint alleges that Oeltjenbruns hit the cashier with a piece of lumber. Police later found Oeltjenbruns sitting in his pickup truck in another store’s parking lot. > > > [@](#): > > > > After a slow-speed chase, officers surrounded his truck with their squad cars, but he refused to get out. Officer Steven Sickmann got up on the truck’s running board and reached through the window. The complaint says Oeltjenbruns closed the window on the officer’s arm, trapping him, and drove off, crashing into squad cars. > > > > The complaint says Sickmann tried to use a rescue hammer to break the window, but Oeltjenbruns took it from him and hit him on the head with it. > > > > Oeltjenbruns was eventually arrested. The complaint says the officer’s injuries included a head wound. > > This should prolly go in the CEBLE&C thread too, come to think of it. So here it is. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1394 "2021-04-18T09:21:19Z")
So, how many times was Oeltjenbruns shot? ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1395 "2021-04-18T12:18:41Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > How could one possibly measure this? We know that black men are more likely to be _convicted_ of crime. But if the system is biased, that’s what we’re going to find even if the actual real crime rate were perfectly flat. One way to measure this is to cross-reference arrest data compiled by the FBI with data from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS is an annual survey organized by the Bureau of Justice. It asks victims of non-fatal violent crimes a number of questions, one of which being the race of the perpetrator(s). The high number of black people arrested for violent crimes tallies quite closely with the number of crime victims who report that their assailants were black. Here’s BJS report from 2018 which goes into more detail. [Race/Ethnicity of Violent Crime - Offenders & Arrestees, 2018.](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/revcoa18.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyWest](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnnywest/32/7223_2.png) [@JohnnyWest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyWest)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1396 "2021-04-18T12:43:56Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > then they’re also more likely than whites to have outstanding warrants, which means their encounters with police (not just in traffic stops) are more likely to have higher stakes The outstanding warrants are - in many cases - for unpaid parking tickets or unpaid moving violations, much like many white people have. A “warrant” can be handed down for things as minor as not paying 20 dollars on a parking ticket. Most warrants are not written for major crimes and let go because if that were the case, the cops would be doing a hunt for the criminal with an outstanding warrant for felonies, etc. The big difference is how police handle a white person with a minor warrant and a black person with a minor warrant. This goes back to training. Cop thinking: If you look like me (white) then I’m probably going to treat you with a bit of deference. If you don’t look like me (black) then I’m probably going to be suspicious and treat you with zero respect. We have thousands of examples of this already on the books. Plus the warrant gives police extra powers and more impetus to rack up points back at headquarters for a “good arrest”. Police thinking runs counter to logic. Pull someone over, look up their info, find a warrant, escalate the situation, cuff the perp, find more evidence of wrong-doing, escalate the situation = good arrest = win more points. This is how they are trained. It’s no wonder we have a Police Problem. I have three relatives that are cops, I know this stuff for a fact, it’s not me sitting here surmising stuff. They do this actively on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1397 "2021-04-18T12:51:36Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > My problem with your analysis is that it lacks about 245 years of absolutely critical context (that I in no way mean to imply you’re unaware of). > > The codification and institutionalization of systemic racism in this country cannot be disputed by any serious person. > > When a white person is grossly mistreated by a LEO, there is less of a wholly critical, material, and relevant narrative that must be included in considering how we got to that place, and how we might ameliorate it going forward. > > It reminds me of the saying, “White privilege doesn’t mean that you don’t have any problems. It just means that the color of your skin isn’t one of those problems.” Here’s the way I look at it; I think it’s fair to say that the driving force behind the wave of anti-police-brutality protests last year was the notion that what happened to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor was only allowed to happen _because_ they were black, and that if they’d been white, they would’ve lived. However, the cases of Tony Timpa and Duncan Lemp prove this isn’t so. Unarmed straight, white, cisgender males get suffocated and shot dead in their sleep, too. The problem is that not many people seem to know that. I would bet literally everything I own that, for every hundred people who’ve heard of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, maybe only three or four have heard of Tony Timpa and Duncan Lemp. Even _that_ may be an overestimate. My contention is simply that because cases of police brutality against black people get so many orders of magnitude more publicity than _identical_ cases of police brutality against white people (or Asian and Hispanic people, for that matter), it becomes almost impossible for people to properly contextualize the phenomenon of police brutality as a whole. You’re certainly correct to say that when a black person (or a person of any minority, for that matter) is mistreated by a white cop, it’s sensible to ask ourselves if racism played a role. However, if, when we take a step back to look at the big picture, we see that similar brutalities are being visited on black and white citizens alike, doesn’t it make more sense to conclude that the cops don’t have a _racial_ brutality problem but instead simply have a brutality problem? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1398 "2021-04-18T13:39:54Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Here’s the way I look at it; I think it’s fair to say that the driving force behind the wave of anti-police-brutality protests last year was the notion that what happened to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor was only allowed to happen _because_ they were black, and that if they’d been white, they would’ve lived. However, the cases of Tony Timpa and Duncan Lemp prove this isn’t so. Unarmed straight, white, cisgender males get suffocated and shot dead in their sleep, too. The problem is that not many people seem to know that. No. Being a person of color – according to statistics – makes it far more likely that you’ll be shot dead by a police officer in an encounter, even when you’re unarmed. That’s very different from saying it never happens to white dudes. You more or less picked the 95 year-old who has smoked 140 pack-years of cigarettes and are claiming that smoking doesn’t cause any medical harm. The statistics also belie the egregious nature of some of the cases that we’ve all seen where the POC ends up dead and the white dude, whose behavior is dramatically worse, more threatening, more aggressive, and more of a danger to the LEOs and the public, gets a cheeseburger and a scalp massage. ---
**Author:** ![wolf11469](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf11469/32/12464_2.png) [@wolf11469](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf11469)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1399 "2021-04-18T14:03:32Z")
You can add 20 year old Dillon Taylor who was unarmed and shot to death while peacefully walking out of a store. Also 80 year old Eugene Mallory who was shot 6 times in his bed during a drug raid that turned up nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1400 "2021-04-18T14:03:49Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > You’re certainly correct to say that when a black person (or a person of any minority, for that matter) is mistreated by a white cop, it’s sensible to ask ourselves if racism played a role. However, if, when we take a step back to look at the big picture, we see that similar brutalities are being visited on black and white citizens alike, doesn’t it make more sense to conclude that the cops don’t have a _racial_ brutality problem but instead simply have a brutality problem? I think the issue is we have two overlapping problems: 1. Policing often escalates trivial encounters into lethal episodes. 2. Systemic and historical racism brings a disproportionate number of people of color into contact with police. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > You more or less picked the 95 year-old who has smoked 140 pack-years of cigarettes and are claiming that smoking doesn’t cause any medical harm. This. Anecdotal evidence of police atrocities against whites may indicate that there is a race-agnostic problem, but doesn’t mean there isn’t also a race-dependent problem. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1401 "2021-04-18T15:03:54Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I think the issue is we have two overlapping problems: > > 1. Policing often escalates trivial encounters into lethal episodes. > 2. Systemic and historical racism brings a disproportionate number of people of color into contact with police. You’ve said it in three sentences better than I could in three paragraphs. There are other systemic problems but you’ve articulated the largest factor imo. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1402 "2021-04-18T15:12:56Z")
> **[Police use Taser twice on Marine veteran in Colorado Springs hospital room](https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/police-use-taser-twice-on-marine-veteran-in-colorado-springs-hospital-room)** > > A Marine veteran was tased twice by officers in his daughter's hospital room after he refused to give up personal property. He says the officers didn’t have a warrant. This is their training. They demand compliance, even if they have no legal right to demand it. Rather than try to get a warrant (which I don’t know if they could or not), they instead torture a man to turn over his phone to look for evidence. They have _no_ respect for the “civilians” that they are supposed to be protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531/1403 "2021-04-18T15:40:00Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > One way to measure this is to cross-reference arrest data compiled by the FBI with data from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS is an annual survey organized by the Bureau of Justice. It asks victims of non-fatal violent crimes a number of questions, one of which being the race of the perpetrator(s). The high number of black people arrested for violent crimes tallies quite closely with the number of crime victims who report that their assailants were black. Here’s BJS report from 2018 which goes into more detail. It may be difficult to rely on data on police officers that is collected BY police officers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread-2/912531.md?page=71)